Today's Radio Program: Watchmen as Witnesses with Mark Cahill (Part One) www.thebereancall.org

Tom: Today and next week, I have the pleasure of interviewing Mark Cahill. Mark’s ministry is evangelism. And as some of you folks know, recently I interviewed a missionary who is very blessed to take his family to minister in some countries that are very hostile to Christianity and Christians in order to share the gospel; and Mark is likewise blessed to go to the streets, the stores, schools, cities, and so forth, of this country and share the gospel…and not necessarily an environment hostile to his message, but he’s had those on occasion. And they certainly are not comparable to the joy he’s found in his calling. He’s put many of those joyful experiences in one of his books titled The Watchmen, which will be the focus of our conversation, and some of the other books are One Heartbeat Away and One Thing You Can’t Do in Heaven, and they can be found at Mark Cahill Ministries as well as here at The Berean Call.

 

Mark, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.

 

Mark: Hey, Tom, great to chat with you again, and great to be in front of The Berean Call audience. And, you know, you really don’t have to go to another country to get hostility toward the message of Jesus Christ. Just need to turn on the web and you can keep reading story after story of, you know, college campuses and persecution against people that stand for the Lord, but it just goes with the territory. And it should encourage you, me, and all your listeners to continue to be bolder and bolder as we stand for Jesus Christ in these days.

 

Tom: You know, but, Mark, in your introduction to your book, you start by saying, and I quote, “By the time you finish reading this book, I hope you are very uncomfortable. I wouldn’t even have a problem if you didn’t like me by the time you set this book down.” Now, that attitude of some not liking us has dogged The Berean Call for decades, particularly because of the book The Seduction of Christianity. And, Mark, as you know, we named more than a few Christian leaders, sacred cows to many, who are not being true to the Scriptures, and that, sadly, got a number of folks very angry. But what motivated you to begin your book like that? I mean, come on, you’re one of the nicest guys I know, so explain yourself.

 

Mark (laughing): Okay, that’s a good point. Well, one of the problems, Tom, is that – I don’t know if you’ve ever seen anybody going through cancer radiation – they’re not extremely comfortable. I’ve had a gallstone and a kidney stone before; you’re not very comfortable. I would imagine just by reading the Scriptures, reading the verses about hell, the eternal nature of it, I get a feeling the people there really aren’t comfortable. Yet when I look around the visible church of today, people are comfortable, they’re happy, they have their coffee and donuts before they do Sunday school class. I was at a restaurant the other day and he tells me the restaurant just fills up with people after Sunday church, and then I ask him, “By the way, how many people Sunday afternoon will tell you about Jesus Christ?” And I actually had the busboy tell me two people have ever shared Christ with him in this restaurant, and I was one of the two. But yet – so we’re very, very comfortable, Tom, but yet we have false teaching in the church, we have a lack of zeal in the church, we have people dying and going to hell, and Mark Cahill’s comfortable? There’s something wrong with that picture, and so we have to do something about that.

 

We were at an Elton John concert the other day, out witnessing, handing tracts out, and people kept telling me – many people told me that they were born again and saved. And so I would ask them, “Okay, so what inside that concert tonight is going to glorify the Lord?” And boy, did we get some responses from people! And of course, the answer is “absolutely nothing.” So you’ve got all these lost people, everybody […] these lost people at this concert, all these supposed Christians hanging out – we’re comfortable. We fit in perfectly to this society, Tom. But when I read the Book of Acts, I read the New Testament, we’re not supposed to fit in perfectly to the societies that we live in.

 

Tom: Yeah, well, Mark, that creates a lot of discomfort. Conviction has a way of doing that, and it’s sad; but, you know, I’m convicted just by what you said, all right? And I’m uncomfortable! But God wants us to move in His direction. If we get comfortable, we get complacent, and then what are we doing? It’s not like we’re trying to – well, I mean, I have to say this a little differently. I was about to say it’s not like we’re trying to get some brownie points here. No, we’re trying to fulfill not only the great commission – hopefully that’s where our heart ought to be, and it’s uncomfortable! We’ve got to move from where we are to where we need to be.

 

Mark: Yeah, exactly, and if you could talk to Dave Hunt right now, Dave Hunt wants 100 percent of the people that follow The Berean Call ministry to know the Word of God, love the Word of God, stand up against false teaching, and share their faith with lost people. But I can’t talk with Dave Hunt right now, but I actually know what he would say if he was here right now and do that, and that’s not 98 percent of the people that follow The Berean Call, or 94, 93, or two percent. That’s every one of us! And so if every one of us – it’s a team; it’s like sports. We’re on the same team together, and if part of the… It’s like military, it’s like a platoon, and if one guy is not doing his job in the platoon, people can die because of that! So what does the platoon leader do? He’s got to get everybody on the same page, everybody doing their job, and if we do that, our platoon can accomplish its mission.

 

So the same thing here: if we just think sports or military with The Berean Call and have the same mindset, Tom, and everybody out there – “Come follow me and I will make you fishers of men.” So if a hundred percent of the people who follow The Berean Call also become fishers of men, hey, buddy, watch out! Watch out for the impact you’re going to make in your local church, the impact you’re going to make in your community, and the impact you’re going to make worldwide when you just follow what the Lord tells us to do.

 

Tom: Yeah. You mentioned The Berean Call – Mark, I’m under conviction right there, because there’s a tendency on my part, the staff – maybe even Dave, to some degree – the tendency is, “Well, you know, we’re about apologetics. We’re about trying to straighten out the church.” And, you know, Dave never lost sight of the fact that the Great Commission, evangelizing…I’m sending out a Berean Bite right now about Loving God, and that’s certainly – there’s a wide scope of what we do as a ministry, but sometimes we’re just perceived as, “Well, you’re just into apologetics. You deal with cults, you deal with aberrational Christian doctrine,” and so on and so forth. No! We need to be – The Berean Call or anybody else – the full counsel of God here, minister where we can, because, Mark, how many times have you heard people say, “Well, that’s not my calling”? I mean, really?

 

Mark: No, I get that all the time, and I say, “Pick up the phone! If you’d answer the phone, you’d find out it is your calling if you read the Bible and do that.”

 

Tom: I like that!

 

Mark: Yeah. First Peter 3: “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.” So here we run – The Berean Call – we run an apologetics ministry, okay? So that means we have to be ready to answer – help them answer the questions that people ask us. Well, let’s back up a second: why would anybody ask us a question? If we don’t engage somebody in a conversation, if we don’t initiate those conversations, if they don’t know we’re serious about Jesus Christ, why would anybody at your workplace even ask you a question about that if you hadn’t brought it up or tried to open up the door with that person and do that?

 

So, for instance, it was 13 years ago – I’m in Florida speaking, and I saw some people walking between cars in this parking lot, so I went over and handed them some tracts and we start talking. They were two Ukrainian teenagers, both 18; started chitchatting – well, they live in Atlanta! So I told them – I said, “Hey, I live in Atlanta, so here’s my digits. Get a hold of me sometime, we’ll go witnessing in Atlanta.” They were both Christians, going to church and pretty solid in their faith for 18. Well, I get home to Atlanta. A month later Gelmut calls me up – we start going witnessing, and we start going to different places witnessing. Well, we become friends. Well, Gelmut’s 31 now, and he called me a couple weeks ago, Tom, and said, “Hey, one of my buddy’s has gone off to college and is in total atheism.” He said, “Would you go to dinner with us and help with some of the questions?”

 

I said, “Sure.” So just a couple weeks ago, we went to dinner. There are about five of us there, all Ukrainians and me, and this young kid started talking, and, Tom, we went two-and-a-half hours on his questions about God and questions about the Bible. And I was responding to those questions – that’s the apologetics we learned with The Berean Call, and I was able to answer pretty much every question he asked. You get all the same questions; there’s nothing new under the sun. Then as I kept talking, Tom, find out the young man’s dad is a pastor, and you just have to know how shattered that man is that his son has gone off to college and ditched the whole faith into atheism. But as we really continued to talk, Tom, the real issue was the young man loved to sin. He mentioned some of the sins he was involved in, and he knows if he’s with Christianity, the conviction’s going to be there, and he decided to walk away from it. That was the big deal we found out, but I wouldn’t know that unless I was sitting there talking to him for two-and-a-half hours. And the people who follow The Berean Call have a lot of knowledge; it’s all in Dave’s books, it’s in the Bible, the Old and New Testament. We can answer people’s questions, but we have to get into those conversations to help these people out.

 

Tom: Yeah. You know, you sort of answered the question, but I’ll ask it anyway: why did you title your book The Watchmen? I mean, that’s not something usually associated with evangelism. Now, you’ve answered it in part, but still, The Watchmen…I mean, if I picked that book up just on the basis of a title, I wouldn’t be thinking about what I know that you do as your calling.

 

Mark: Yeah, that’s interesting you said that, because as I was making the mistake of actually reading my Bible one day – I actually read it every day. I actually read it front to back every year, which is really simple to do. You just read three and a half chapters a day, 10-15 minutes a day and you’ll read your whole Bible front to back, and as you do that, the Holy Spirit has a way just to drill you with some scriptures. And I was reading Ezekiel, and chapter…I think it’s 3, and then chapter 33 – and it talks about the watchman on the wall, and what the watchman on the wall did is he would blow the trumpet to warn people trouble was coming. So when the watchman was up there and he saw the army come to the rise on a hill, he would blow the trumpet, then it was the people’s job in the city to get ready for the battle that was about to ensue.

 

And so you can kind of liken it to down South where I live – a tornado siren goes off. So when the tornado siren goes off, there’s a guy in a little cubbyhole who’s looking at the weather map, and he sees the cell coming toward them, and it turns red, and he hits that button, and when that button goes off, the siren starts going. Or maybe some older people remember the sirens during World War II in London when the German bombers were coming. Well, when the siren goes off, Tom, you have a choice to make: in London, you can go outside and watch the pretty bombs come falling down – of course, you’re going to die because of that. Down south, when the siren goes off, you can go out and enjoy the windy day, or you can go under and take protection as the tornado comes through.

 

But I always thought about that guy in the thing, when he presses the button, Tom, he doesn’t know how people are going to react! He doesn’t know if they’re going to pay attention or take it serious – some people will think it’s not serious, like a tsunami warning or something. And then it hit me: that’s our job. Whether that atheist at lunch the other day took it serious (at dinner), took it serious, the conversation we had… He smirked at me a few times, and I said to him a couple times – said to him twice – I said, “Hold on, stop: why are you smirking at me?” I said, “I’m not smirking at you when I’m answering. I’m trying to legitimately help you out, but you’re smirking.” Because he was just mocking, and that’s part of what goes with the territory sometimes, okay? But I am so glad that I blew the trumpet and warned him trouble’s coming if he continues to reject what Jesus Christ did for him.

 

So again, the loving, caring thing for that guy in that office is to press the button and let people know the tornado’s coming. Same thing, Tom: if you care about your next-door neighbor, if you care about somebody, a waiter or waitress, if you care about a friend, you’re willing to pick up the trumpet and warn them trouble’s coming if they don’t repent and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Tom: Amen. And those verses that you’re quoting, I mean, it’s serious! The scripture says, “If you don’t warn them, their blood is going to be on your head.” Now we’ve got a problem, and the problem comes to…and it’s not just because of what the Lord has blessed me and enabled me to do with Dave Hunt for, you know, for 40 years. I love this calling, but my concern is – my sadness is – where have I heard in other churches – and when I’m around the world, or wherever it might be, if I’m not preaching on that Sunday, maybe I’m visiting another church – but in the many churches that I’m aware of, Mark, where’s there ever a message about being a watchman? Because a lot of pastors say, “Hey, you know, well, that creates issues, you know, and we certainly don’t want to rock the boat here, because if there are issues, then we have church splits, then we have this…” Bad deal. Bad deal.

 

Mark: You know, that’s interesting you said that, because I was speaking in one of the largest churches in Florida, and I was doing a training seminar about sharing your faith, and I was telling people that witnessing was not inviting people to church; witnessing was you going out and talking with somebody about the Lord Jesus Christ. And I told a story of how I had stopped for dinner on the way over to the church, and just this crazy encounter that happened through that. Well, when I finished, I didn’t realize this, but the pastor was there – and I actually know him; I didn’t see him in the crowd – and so he came up afterwards and, you know, it was one of these, “Hey, you know, we love Mark; Mark is great…” And I knew the next word that was coming: “But…”

 

Tom (laughing): “But.” Right!

 

Mark: And he said – he said, “Now, remember, invite people to church with you on Sunday. You want to bring them here and do that….” Well, you know me by now, Tom. I’m a little bit crazy. So I got up, I walked back up on the stage, and I said, “Hey, how you doing, pastor? Good to see you.” I said, “Now, is it okay to invite lost people to church?” And the crowd said, “Sure,” and I said, “Sure it is! I don’t have a problem with that. But,” I said, “if they come to this church and they hear the gospel presented by that man right there,” I said, “that should be at least the second time they’ve heard the gospel presentation.” I said, “Where should the first time have come from?”

 

And it finally hit them: they said, “It should be from me.”

 

I said, “It should be from you! Because if you had enough guts to invite them to church, you should have enough guts to invite them to heaven to spend eternity with you and the Lord Jesus Christ.” And so sometimes we just get caught in these things: Well, that’s someone else’s job. That’s that ministry’s job. Oh, the pastor will do that, I just have to invite them. No, that’s my job, and you see that in the New Testament with Peter and Paul and all the apostles, the people that went out two by two, they were all going out there and sharing their faith and being bold for Christ, and that’s an example we can all learn from.

 

Tom: You know, Mark one of the things I appreciate, and you really taught me – I mean, you…I can’t remember if you taught it to Carl Kerby or Carl Kerby taught it to you… No, I think Carl Kerby got it from you, and it has to do with conversation. Now, one of the things I’m getting at here is that your book, The Watchmen, is loaded with experiences about you going about sharing the gospel and, in addition, you give some insights into the many ways you […], which are wonderful helps and encouragements to those who want to either start witnessing or expand their own sharing of the gospel. But talk about such things as conversation, how you like to get a conversation going.

 

Mark: Okay, so, one, I love Carl Kerby, but yeah, he stole my stuff. But I told him he can steal everything. It’s not my stuff anyways, it’s all the Lord’s [laughing]! But I always just tell people witnessing isn’t a presentation, witnessing is a conversation, that Jesus had a conversation with the woman at the well; Jesus had a conversation with the rich young ruler. And so we just go out and try to have conversations. Now, I love to hand tracts out and all that, but I’d rather have a conversation.

 

So last week at the Elton John concert, there was a little bit of a lull, and there was a guy standing there, and I tried to hand him a tract, and he wouldn’t take it. And he had some luggage with him, so I finally just thought, I’m gonna start trying…just said, “Hey, what are you doing here?”

 

He said, “Well, I actually work for building the set inside there, and I just flew into town.”

 

I said, “Really?” I said, “Well, tell me about Elton John: what’s he like?” Well, we just started talking and stuff, and as we continued to talk, Tom, he wanted nothing to do with Christianity at all. I said, “So what’s your big holdup that’s holding you back with that?” He said, “Hypocrites. I am sick and tired of hypocrites.”

 

I said, “Okay.” I said, “That’s legitimate.” I said…we were standing right by the entrance where they have all the security, you know, the metal detectors, and you can’t sneak a knife, a gun, a rocket-propelled grenade, or anything into the arena, you know? And so I said, “Let me ask you a question.”

 

He said, “Okay.”

 

I said, “If you were going through one of those security detectors and that person right there gave you a hard time—just thought you were the worst, you had stuff on you, you were going to cause…just really just ruined your day. But then you went through and you went into the Elton John concert.” I said, “Would that stop you from enjoying that concert tonight?”

 

He said, “No way on earth.” He said, “I’m going to enjoy that concert.”

 

I said, “Exactly!” I said, “Just because you think you’ve met some people that represent Jesus Christ not the way you would have it represented, why would that stop you from finding out about the God who loves you, the God who died for your sins – why would you ever let that stop you from finding out who He is?”

 

He looked at me, Tom – he said, “I love that answer.” And that helped with this. And I said, “Do you believe in God?”

 

And he said, “I most definitely do.” I was really shocked! I was expecting a different answer. But as we continued to talk, he ends up dropping this in at the end, Tom, he said, “Oh, by the way,” he said, “my mom is a very, very strong Christian – really loves God and loves the Lord.”

 

And so I said, “Do you think your mom believes in a myth, in a fairy tale?” Because he had mentioned that earlier, and we started talking. At the end of it, he didn’t take a tract at the beginning, but he took one of those One Second After You… booklets you guys carry at The Berean Call. He took that at the end, and then we shook hands as his Uber came up. He couldn’t go anywhere till his Uber came and got him, and then it hit me: you know, all that probably was, Tom, was an answer to his momma’s prayers for someone to witness to her son, to bring him back to where he was as a kid. So it was just a conversation standing right outside the concert arena here in Atlanta, and it was still one of the best – and I’ve been able to pray for that man since then. So just having a conversation with people, planting seeds, and watch what the Lord does.

 

Tom: You know, Mark, the thing that really blesses me to no end about the idea of conversation: with a conversation, number one, if you come with an “all right, here’s my game plan, here’s what I’m going to address,” you know, it’s like you’re coming with a method or methodology, and what you’re going to do is impose that on whoever you’re going to talk to. That’s not being led of the Spirit.

 

Mark: Exactly.

 

Tom: Now, God has given us all wisdom. I mean, if you’ve been born again yesterday, guess what? You just started on the road to wisdom! So God’s going to use you, if you’re open to that in conversation…I mean, look: how many conversations you’ve had that you absolutely directed it from word one till maybe an hour later? Doesn’t happen that way! God opens up thoughts, He gives you ideas, you respond to something that, you know, the question – just as you’ve just described, Mark. That’s why conversation – very rarely will it bring a defensive mechanism. It may start that way, but you’ve just described how that’s been loosened up, that’s not been a barrier.

 

Mark: Yeah, Tom, I can’t tell you how good of a point that is, Tom, because if you think about it, if you were the other person, you can tell when someone has a rote, preprogrammed way to talk to you. You get it from telemarketers all the time. You can tell when they’re reading from a script. And so don’t we think a lost person could tell the exact same thing if we have everything preplanned and do that? We don’t think about that.

 

I had a waiter the other night – Chris – and I asked him a question. He’s probably mid-40s, and I asked him a question – here’s a real good, easy one that all your listeners can use – I said, “Hey Chris, by the way, when you were younger as a kid, did you grow up in any religious faith or belief or traditions as a child?”

 

He said, “Yes, I did.”

 

I said, “Now that you’re older, is it more important to you or less important to you?”

 

He said, “Oh, less important. Much less important.”

 

I said, “Really?” I said, “Why is it less important?” Because usually, you know, it should become more important. We’re getting closer to dying, so it should become more important. I said, “Why is it less important?”

 

And he said, “Man, just some things that happened and stuff.”

 

And I said, “Okay. What did you grow up in as a kid?”

 

He said, “Well, I grew up Catholic.”

 

So I said, “Okay. So are you talking about some of the molestation and the pedophilia that happened at church?”

 

And he said, “Yes, I am.” And that’s a good thing for us to remember, Tom, because a lot of Roman Catholics are very unhappy with what’s happening in the church now, but I think they’re still going to be very open to Jesus Christ – not religion, but to Jesus Christ.

 

So I said, “Okay. Do you still believe in God?”

 

He said, “No, I don’t. Me and my wife are more agnostic.” So we kept talking about some proofs for God. As we’re chatting, Tom, the restaurant got really busy. He had a few other tables, but he would not take his eyes off me. He was chatting with me, and he was soaking up what I was saying, and I said, “I know you’re busy, because you’ve got a lot of things that are happening here.” I said, “Do you like to read?”

 

He said, “Oh, me and my wife love to read.” Well, before it was done, he ended up taking two of my books, One Heartbeat Away and Paradise – and people can get them right there from The Berean Call – and he took both of these. He said, “I’m really looking forward to reading these,” because I gave him some proofs for a God, and he was very excited about that. I shook his hand, I left him a really nice tip. Wonderful guy! Chris was just fascinating. But, Tom, I didn’t have a preprogrammed plan with him. I didn’t know where that was going to go, but I just went with the flow, let the Holy Spirit lead – plant truth, plant truth, plant truth, blow the trumpet, speak the truth in love. One of the greatest conversations I ever had, and it was about three weeks ago.

 

Tom: You know, Mark, we’ve got about a minute left, but I’m looking forward to next week, because we’re going to deal with that issue. You see, in combination with conversation, you’ve just underscored it: it’s questions! All those things point to your interest in people. It’s not a matter of imposing something on them – you want to know where their hearts are, you know, what they’re thinking or not thinking, and so on.

 

So again, Mark, this has been great! So I look forward to next week. We’re going to be dealing with certainly those questions and more about prayer, about giving, about critical undergirding the witness, and of course, the necessity of knowing God’s Word. So thanks, Mark, and I look forward to next week with you.

 

Mark: Amen. Thanks, Tom.

PATHETIC! WND EXCLUSIVE Cops clear themselves after posting signs accusing Christian 'bigots' Claim hate-crime posters 'not based on malice'

Published: 13 hours ago

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image: https://www.wnd.com/files/2018/10/dear-bigots-posters-4x3.jpg

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Cops clear themselves after posting signs accusing Christian 'bigots'

Posted By -NO AUTHOR- On 12/26/2018 @ 8:10 pm In APP Frontpage,Faith,Front Page,Politics,World | No Comments

The cops in Scotland who were found to be posting anti-Christian “bigot” hate-crime posters around their communities have investigated themselves based on a complaint filed by the Barnabas Fund Christian ministry, and they have found themselves to be innocent.
“A senior officer at Police Scotland has belatedly responded to a formal complaint made by Barnabas Fund about a ‘hate crime’ poster campaign run by Police Scotland and the Scottish government,” the ministry has reported.
His conclusion? The posters that target Christians are not “based on malice or ill will towards any social group.”
It was about two months ago that the ministry complained to the government about the posters that described Christians and other religious believers as “bigots” and condemned them.
One pastor called the campaign’s own anti-“hate” line to report the posters.
The posters by the government-run One Scotland campaign are addressed “Dear Bigots.”
One message states: “Division seems to be what you believe in. We don’t want your religious hate on our buses, on our streets and in our communities. We don’t want you spreading your intolerance. Or making people’s lives a misery because of their religious dress. You may not have faith in respect and love, but we do. That’s why if we see or hear your hate, we’re reporting you. End of sermon.”
Another states: “You can’t spread your religious hate here. End of sermon.”
The cops’ posters were displayed in all Scottish cities. The government-sponsored campaign carried the logo of Police Scotland.
Barnabas Fund warned how the “Dear Bigots” poster risked stirring up anti-religious prejudice and had upset many Christians.
“The letter replying to Barnabas Fund’s complaint arrived after 61 days instead of the normal 56 day maximum time period for responding. It included Police Scotland’s definition of hate crimes or incidents as being considered as such when ‘perceived by the victim’ to be motivated by ‘malice and ill-will’ towards a particular ‘social group.’ But the responding officer, who investigated his own department’s actions and motivation in commissioning the posters, said in his letter that the posters were not intended to be prejudicial to any group, adding that no further action would be taken,” Barnabas Fund reported.
The ministry said it was disappointed in the actions.
“The response also failed to address the substance of our complaint, including the potential breach of international human rights by state advocacy of hostility against a religious group,” the organization said.
“Barnabas Fund discussed concerns with Christians Together and Scottish MPs at a meeting at the Scottish Parliament last week and we are reviewing the possibility of taking our complaint further.
The Daily Mail of London reported Rev. David Robertson of St. Peter’s Free Church in Dundee said: “It is an absolute contradiction – a poster that is supposed to be against hatred that then encourages hatred. I showed my congregation the poster and they couldn’t believe it. It’s basically a poster that says if you are religious then you are a bigot.”
The campaign classifies people as bigots, racists, homophobes and transphobes, and threatens them with prosecutions and convictions.
Barnabas’ CEO Hendrik Storm issued a statement saying he was “shocked” by the message on the posters.
The organization has supported Christians who face prejudice and discrimination globally since 1993 but has never before deemed it necessary to make a formal complaint in the United Kingdom.
“This form of state-sponsored prejudice is something that Barnabas is more used to encountering in countries where Christians are marginalized and persecuted minorities,” the group said.

Article printed from WND: http://www.wnd.com
URL to article: http://www.wnd.com/2018/12/cops-clear-themselves-after-posting-signs-accusing-christian-bigots/

Politics As Religion with J. B. Hixson (Part One) www.theberancall.org

Tom: Thanks, Gary. On this program and next week, the subject is “Politics as Religion.” My guest to discuss this – really, a growing development within Christendom – is J. B. Hixson. J. B. is an author, Bible teacher, and radio host. His ministry is Not By Works and can be found at www.notbyworks.org. You can go to his website to order his book Getting the Gospel Wrong: The Evangelical Crisis No One Is Talking About, an important book.
J. B., thanks for joining me again on Search the Scriptures 24/7.
J. B.: Hey, my pleasure, Tom. Thanks for having me!
Tom: J. B., let’s start with a general overview of our topic “Politics as Religion.” You know, that title could have different meanings to our listeners, so let’s define what we plan to talk about, and what do we mean by “Politics as Religion,” or to say it in another way, “Politics as an Essential Part of One’s Religion”?
J. B.: Well, it really is an interesting phrase. I love the title there, “Politics as Religion.” What we are seeing today is that God is sort of being cast as the Republican and even as an American. And when I speak at different conferences, that’s one of the first things I do is remind people, “God is not a Republican, and God’s not an American.” And it’s funny. Even just saying those two simple things, the reaction that I get is a raised eyebrow at a minimum and sometimes some boos! But that’s the reality is that our God is the eternal Creator of the Universe. He spoke the world into existence. In the grand scheme of things, the United States of America is only 242 years old. And God is doing a lot more in the world than just what we see in Washington, DC, or what we see even in our local politics.
What I mean by “Politics as Religion” is just trying to encourage people to see through the lens of the Scriptures rather than through the lens of some kind of a right-left, Republican-Democrat paradigm, even though the issues that sometimes those paradigms are involved with are important issues. We need to remember that the Scripture is the ultimate standard for our beliefs, attitudes, and practices.
Tom: Right. The thing that concerns me is that oftentimes it’s not just – call it the doctrine, or the teaching, or the view. Sometimes it falls back on a leader – on somebody who’s prominent and somebody . . . so they rally behind an individual, and, more often than not, they lose sight of – wait a minute, let’s be a Berean here. Let’s check out what he’s saying, what he’s doing. We may agree with some of the aspects of it, but are we following this guy? Is this guy leading us according to the Scripture, or is he scriptural? These are problems.
J. B.: Absolutely! Yeah, we tend to assume that if it’s Republican it’s Christian, and if it’s not Republican it’s not Christian; or if it’s Fox News it’s Christian; if it’s not Fox News it’s not Christian.
Tom: Right.
J. B.: It’s really a symptom of a bigger problem, and I think that’s one of the things we’re going to touch on later in the program is just this lack of discernment and this idea that people enjoy being spoon fed, so they like to get their issues and sound bites from some of the talking heads rather than really doing the research themselves.
Tom: Right. You know, one of the seductive aspects of mixing politics with Christianity is that there are often views that political parties promote with which Christians agree, which is pretty much what you just said. And while that may include Christians who are mostly conservative in their politics, it doesn’t leave out those who are liberal in their politics.
You know, I think about what’s called “Progressive Christianity,” which is really left-wing liberal beliefs, and the idea seems to be, “Let’s get our beliefs, our agenda, into society through political action.” Well, what are some of the problems with that?
J. B.: Well, I think right off the bat the biggest problem is that it comes at a cost. Most politicians are going to promote anything they can to get the votes, and so, they would happily appeal to the sort of a Christian evangelical wing to try to get votes when they don't really believe, a lot of times, the things that they’re saying.
But another problem with that idea of trying to get our beliefs or agenda in place through political action is just . . . ultimately, you can’t legislate morality.
Tom: Right.
J. B.: The Apostle Paul was pretty clear that the Law is powerless to change the heart. I’ve never seen a stop sign uproot itself from the side of the road and force a car to stop. So, laws and legislation have their place, and we do need laws, obviously, but at the end of the day it’s about a change of heart, and I think sometimes, whether we realize it or not, by jumping on the bandwagon of the so-called right-wing conservative movement, we are unwittingly subcontracting this idea of trying to change the world to a pagan institution.
Tom: Right. Along that line, I know some who are listening and they might be on the edge of their seat: “Well, wait a minute! Don’t these guys understand that we are citizens of this earth? We have a dual citizenship.” I want to talk about that, because that’s important; and, folks, if you’re getting the idea as we go through this that we’re anti-government or something along that line, hopefully you’re missing the point of what we’re saying or what we’re going to say.
So, we do have a dual citizenship: heaven and this earth. But what about living up to our responsibilities as, well, what we would call our earthly duties? What do we have to say about that?
J. B.: Well, first of all, I think that we need to remember that our heavenly citizenship comes first.
Tom: Right.
J. B.: That’s the priority, you know. Paul said in Philippians, “Our citizenship is in heaven.” He said in Colossians 3, “Set your mind on things above,” you know. We have an obligation to serve the Lord first and foremost, and, again, in the grand scheme of human history, the United States of America, it’s fairly novel. And, by the way, if you understand biblical prophecy the way I do, there’s no guarantee the United States of America will be around when the eschatological events kick off with the Rapture.
I’ve often reminded people, “Has it ever occurred to you that you might be raptured as a Chinese citizen or a Russian citizen?” I don’t think that’s likely, just looking at the signs of the times around us, but theologically, it’s certainly possible. And it’s just a way to remind us to take off those red, white, and blue glasses and put on biblical glasses.
But back to your question, you know, yes, obviously every human being, 7.5 billion people on the earth, has a responsibility to serve and to live out their Christian life if they know the Lord in whatever country they’re living in. And in the United States, that life comes with some unique blessings and some unique challenges. But what we’re saying is you have to separate this right/left, Republican/Democrat paradigm from religion, from what the Bible says, and recognize that that’s not the answer to all our problems.
Let me give you an example, Tom. If the Republicans were somehow God’s sanctioned or ordained party, then all we would need to do to really change the world is to find ourselves in a situation where the Republicans control the White House, the Senate, and the Congress, and where the Republicans have appointed a majority of Supreme Court justices. And, boy, if we could ever do that, it would be game over, right?
Well, guess what? There have been many times when that’s the case. The Gingrich Revolution, the Tea Party Revolution – until this last election, we were living in a situation where both houses of congress were controlled by the Republicans, and we had a Republican in the White House. And yet, Roe v. Wade is still in place. We’ve got gay marriage, thanks to a Republican-appointed Supreme Court Justice. We got Obamacare, thanks to a Republican-appointed Supreme Court Justice.
So, we need to understand that things are not always as they appear, even though there are some godly men and women who serve in, frankly, in both parties and truly are attempting to make a difference in this world with a biblical worldview in politics, it would be a vast overstatement to just assume anything with an R after its name is somehow godly.
Tom: Right. The thing I think about as you went through that, there are things that we need to do. For example, it’s our responsibility to vote. Some of the things that take place, if not just for ourselves (laughing) – I’m elderly, okay? But I think about my kids and my grandkids – what are they going to have to deal with? And if we have, as you said, not many countries have what we have, so we do have a responsibility to vote. But I think back to some of the things you mentioned: running an individual for president. I think back of the push behind Pat Robertson through the Moral Majority and the Christian Right. Boy, that was bad news.
J. B.: Right.
Tom: Or even before that, we had Carter claiming to be a born-again Christian, and then bringing many over to the Democratic side, and so on, and boy, what a disaster that was, in my view, okay?
J. B.: Yeah.
Tom: But what I’m getting at here is we still have a responsibility. I think, personally – you may not agree with me, but I don’t know how a true committed born-again Christian can be the president of the United States. It’s a pluralistic society. He has to cover so many different things that were contrary to what the Scriptures say.
Or you think back to the Surgeon General, who was a Christian, and then he had to fall in line with the whole condom thing. It’s problematic, and so on.
J. B.: Yeah, that’s what we were saying a moment ago, that when you try to get your beliefs or agenda into society through political action, it comes at a cost. There always has to be compromise.
Tom: Yeah.
J. B.: But you’re right. It goes to the ’70s with groups like the Moral Majority and other political action groups, and they have become a powerful lobby in DC. And I’m sad to say, but having researched this and talked to some people on the inside, not all of the leaders of those so-called evangelical blocs are truly biblical conservatives! And there have been a lot of exposés written about them. I think when you sort of get down into the muck and the mire you end up getting dirty yourselves.
But I would agree, in America, and any country where you have the right to vote, you should get out and vote, particularly at the local level – that’s where you can really make a difference. On the school boards, on town commissions, mayors, even, local sheriffs – those are vitally important because the tentacles of the Federal overreach don’t always come that far, at least not yet.
Tom: Yeah.
J. B.: I think a case can be made at the national level, even though philosophically we all still believe we have a duty to vote, ever since the introduction of the digital voting and the digital vote tabulation, it’s a real open question as to how much your vote really matters. If you watch documentaries – extremely well-researched documentaries, such as Hacking Democracy, or Black Box Voting, or even listen to some of the congressional hearings that have been held on this matter on C-Span, there are some real issues. An 18-year-old computer whiz can be paid $100,000 by a rogue group to strike a few keys on his keyboard in a cubical in Cleveland and literally change the outcome of the results of an election in California. So, the digital . . . I mean, if we can digitally hack into NSA email servers, if you don’t think we can hack into voting tabulation machines, then you’re pretty naïve.
So, people say all the time, “Well, you’ve got to get out and vote.” Well, I’m not sure at the presidential level how much of that – not to sound like a conspiracy guy, but how much of that really matters. You know, in Iran, they have elections, and amazingly, Ahmadinejad used to win every time. So, does that mean that if you’re a Christian in Iran that you have a moral duty to vote? Not if you realize that the voting is rigged and it’s all a farce, I don’t think there’s a moral obligation in that case. Does that make sense?
Tom: It does, but I’d like to go back to what you said regarding the local level.
J. B.: Yeah.
Tom: Again, we have our children, who have their children in schools. So for somebody to get on the school board, I think it’s important, especially with some of the rules and regulations we see coming out of the schools, you know, you can’t bring your Bible, you can’t talk about Jesus, whatever it might be. Not that that’s going to solve every problem, but if a parent has no choice, he has to have . . . he can’t homeschool – whatever it might be – but he has to have his child in the school system, well, we need a voice there – a voice to bring it back to – not just biblical sense, which is critical, but common sense. I mean, we’ve seen that we’ve lost that part in major ways.
J. B.: Yeah, I have six . . . my wife and I have six children. One of our older children just got married, and no grandchildren yet, but likewise, we share some of those concerns. And the landscape is pretty discouraging when you look at what all is going on out there in the United States and in the world at large, and maybe your listeners have already picked up on sort of a tone of negativity, but I want to say that I’m not ready to give up the fight.
Tom: Right.
J. B.: I mean, until Jesus comes, we have an obligation to really fight hard, to spread the gospel, to try to make a difference – even though there are many problems in our country, it’s still the best country in the world, and we can make a difference in little ways, and one of those little ways is to get involved in local politics.
Now, for us, we’ve chosen to homeschool our children all the way through. That doesn’t mean that we don’t care about local school boards, because we serve in churches with people who do put their children in public schools and we want to have some positive voices in there. And you can do that better with some biblical leadership on the school boards than without it.
Tom: J. B., it’s important for us to lay this out front, with regard to what we’re going to address through this. So, it’s important, yes. Folks, we’re just saying we do have a responsibility, and we’re not going to give up the fight here, especially where maybe our children or our grandchildren are involved.
But now, let’s move onto kind of what, I know, from the discussions that we’ve had, where your heart and my heart is in this, and that is our great concern that many Christians seem to be putting their hope in man – that is, the means of man to bring about the righteousness of God. What are we talking about here?
J. B.: Yeah, I can think of two recent examples where, you know, I was involved in some pretty heated discussions, and some good Q&As at conferences where I spoke, and that was the last two presidential elections. The mantra seems to be, among many Christians, that, “Well, I’ve only got two options, so I have to vote for ‘the lesser of two evils.’” And, I’ll just be honest. I don’t buy that principle at all. I believe when both options are evil, you should choose neither. And people say, “Well, then you’re just casting a vote for the more evil person.” And they feel like you’re sort of forced into one of these two options.
But we put out a DVD some time ago called, “One Nation under God,” in which I used the example of David in Scripture. Here’s a guy who became a leader of Israel, and he was the last guy you would expect to be chosen. In fact, when Samuel was going down the line, he thought he had chosen all the candidates, and then they said, “Wait a minute! No, there’s one more guy.” You know, he’s the least likely guy, but he’s God’s man, because he’s a man after God’s own heart.
And, so, I believe that if Christians would vote through the lens of Scripture instead of being forced into one of two options, it would be amazing to see what God could do. Now, I know from a human perspective it seems like a long shot, but I don’t buy the premise, “The lesser of two evils.” I think that’s sort of putting your hope in the system rather than putting your hope in God and letting God put forth the man of the hour that might in fact bring revival and bring a lot of change.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Let’s shift gears here, slightly, and that is putting our hope in a man to bring about some change and so on. Now, we have seen this – I mentioned earlier that there are some individuals out there that we thought, Oh yeah, this guy’s gonna be good, because he’s this or because he’s that, or whatever it might be. In some cases, they’ve been disastrous.
J. B.: Oh, yeah!
Tom: Now, what I’m thinking about more specifically is that when an agenda – a guy leading and agenda – comes along, and whether you call it Republican or you call it Conservative, now this is the man. And he may not even be running for office . . . To me, one character that I think about is Glenn Beck. I mean, here is a guy who came in and, boy, talk about rallying Christians to himself under the guise that he was a Christian! Well, if you call a Catholic Mormon a Christian, you’d better check your thinking on that. But he was invited to speak at Liberty. I think he did the graduation there, and so on. But the point is that here’s a guy who his agenda – many Christians, professing Christians, maybe even true believers, bought into the program. Now the agenda became the thing, and he became “the man.”
Well, earlier I mentioned – this goes back to the Moral Majority, the Christian Right, Pat Robertson. We had, in that particular situation, Jerry Falwell, for example. So, you know, he’s – Jerry Falwell’s working with Sun Myung Moon, or whoever will come together to get his conservative perspective into society through legislation, or what have you.
Of late, we’ve seen the same thing happen according to progressive Christianity, or the left side. They’re trying to get their agenda in, and there are individuals who step up, and maybe somebody who’s not as conservative minded as others, they say, “Yeah, this is the guy we want to follow. He’s got the right idea,” and so on. This is a problem. This is, again, how we started out: this is Christians – professing Christians, true Christians – using a man, putting their hope in a man to bring about the righteousness of God. It can’t happen.
J. B.: Oh, man. Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. We are so easily duped. I say often, “I wish Christians would just turn off Fox News and open the Bible. Because we love a hero. We love somebody to champion our cause, and so, whether that’s Glenn Beck (and I know he’s not on Fox News anymore), but whether it’s Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh – those are all just metaphors for leading talking heads of the so-called conservative movement – people don't take the time to stop and realize what they’re really doing when they hitch their wagons to those types of people.
And I could tell you a story about Glenn Beck real quick. I had the chance a few years ago when Beck was still on Fox News to spend some time – spend a whole day – with a leading evangelical, and I won’t mention his name, but everybody in the listening audience would know him if I mentioned him. And when I got there for this appointment, he was running late, and they said, “I’m sorry, he’s running a few minutes late. He was on the Glenn Beck show live this morning, and he’s coming in from that.” And I said, “Oh, that’s interesting.”
So this evangelical leader comes in. We sit down to talk, and he said . . . first thing he said to me was, “You know. I used to be skeptical about Glenn Beck and whether he’s a Christian, but you know, after spending a few minutes with him this morning, I really think he might be a Christian.”
And I just . . . I wanted to just grab the guy and shake him! I mean, it would have been disrespectful, but I wanted to say, “You’ve got to be kidding me. You mean, after 15 minutes with him, you’ve allowed him to convince you that even though you know his theology, you know what he stands for, you know what his belief system is, and yet, you think, just because he invited you on his show, somehow he’s a spokesman for Christianity.”
So, nobody’s immune, whether we’re just the average guy out in the byways and highways, or we’re a leading evangelical, the deception is powerful, and it’s so easy to just jump onboard these bandwagons.
And again, I go back to if that’s all it would take, why haven’t we changed anything? Why haven’t we overturned Roe v. Wade? We’ve given these movements our vote, and we’ve given them in many cases our money, and yet, nothing changes.
Tom: What you said about somebody stuck on, whether it be Fox News, or whatever, I’ve got a suggestion. Rather than just turning it off, I would say, be a Berean.
J. B.: Yeah.
Tom: Why don’t you sit there and listen to what they have to say and then compare it to the Scripture? I guarantee you – that will wean these people off. I don’t want any part of that from the get-go.
J. B.: Yeah, and not even just comparing it with Scripture, which is the first and best approach, but just even do your own research. I remember when John Roberts was put forward on the Supreme Court, and all the Republicans and conservatives and Christians were all so excited. “Oh, this guy’s outstanding. He’s wonderful.”
I took a half-a-day one time to just go back and research where he came from, what law firm he worked for. I discovered that he had been a partner at the leading LGBT law firm for some twenty years, I think it was. And so, when later on, he cast the deciding vote in favor of gay marriage, and everybody was stunned, I wasn’t! I said, “This guy’s just acting like he’s always acted.”
So, we were told he was a conservative, because Sean Hannity said he’s a conservative, but, again, you need to do the research.
Tom: Right. Well, we’ve only got a minute or two left in this session, but, folks, what we want to do is go over more of these issues. We want to talk about things like conservatism – is it next to godliness? Or “people of faith,” or the well-being of all. And we’re going to deal with a major, major item, which is “the end justifies the means,” which is really the heart of much of what we’ll be talking about.
So, J. B., again, good stuff. Maybe some people out there are a little upset. Maybe they don’t agree with us. Well, that’s fine, but at least consider what we’re saying, and again, hopefully, you’re a biblical Christian, and if that’s the case, hold it up to that. Be a Berean.
So, again, thank you J. B., and I look forward to next week!
J. B.: Amen. Thanks, Tom!