UN denies complicity in Central African Republic massacres, but questions remain worldwatchmonitor.org

 February 9, 2018 By World Watch Monitor Central African Republic Bangui, Central African Republic, Faustin-Archange Touadéra, MINUSCA, Seleka

In September rebels attacked the town of Bocaranga, forcing the vast majority of its 15,000 inhabitants, including women and children, to flee. (Photo: World Watch Monitor)

The UN has rejected allegations of complicity with armed groups in a string of massacres last year in the Central African Republic.
A UN Special Investigation team, led by Brigadier General (rtd) Fernand Amoussou and including legal, political and human-rights experts, looked into attacks between 1 May and 31 August 2017 in Haute-Kotto, Basse-Kotto, Mbomou, and Haut-Mbomou prefectures. MINUSCA has a presence in each of these areas, and the team also looked into the Mission’s response to these incidents, as well as any potential negligence.
In a statement, on 24 January, the investigation team stated: “No evidence was found that any of the Mission’s contingents in the southeast had acted in a partial manner towards certain armed groups or communities.”
Nonetheless, the inability of UN peacekeepers to curb the violence has been denounced by many, including local MPs, religious leaders and human right organisations.
During a visit last October, UN Secretary-General António Guterres was questioned by MPs about the mandate of the UN troops in CAR.
“How to explain that 12,000 men of the United Nations force are on the ground and that at the same time the civilian population continues to be massacred?” asked Karim Meckassoua, the President of the National Assembly. “What is the mandate of this force? Cannot we do better and more?”
The leader of the opposition, Anicet-Georges Dologuélé, added: “We have all noted that some officials of the Minusca maintained sympathies with warlords with regards to either culture or religion, either to obscure economic interests.”
Last August, a local MP accused UN peacekeepers of “complicity” in an attack which claimed dozens of lives, including ten Red Cross workers, in the eastern town of Gambo.
The MP for Gambo, Michel Kpingo, in a statement said that while all had wished for the UN Moroccan contingent to be replaced, it had not been, and that “the complicity of these soldiers was clearly established in the events of Gambo”.
Catholic Cardinal Dieudonné Nzapalainga has also condemned the ongoing violence. He recalled that he and his two fellow leaders of CAR’s interfaith platform advocated for the deployment of UN peacekeepers, but he now says “regrettably, we noticed their failures and limitations on the ground. On various occasions, they have failed to protect those in need of assistance, and many have come to ask questions about their role or mandate in CAR”. Last March, following deadly clashes in the northern town of Kaga Bandoro (350km north of the capital), he spoke about the same issue.

Timeline of recent incidents

Paoua, December 2017

On 27 December 2017, fighting between two ex-Séléka rebel groups – the RJ (Revolution Justice) and the MPC (Le Mouvement Patriotique pour la Centrafrique) – erupted in the north-western town of Paoua and its surroundings. The violence claimed more than 100 lives, and forced some 60,000 people to flee.
In an open letter, dated 3 January and addressed to the representative of the UN General Secretary in the Central African Republic, Parfait Onanga Anyanga, a local NGO, Mekasna, pointed out a recent article by local news site La Voix des Sans Voix, titled ‘MINUSCA caught red-handed refuelling militants of General Bahar in weapons and ammunition’.
“This supply [by MINUSCA] gave the rebels a smile and strength to complete their despicable acts on the peaceful population,” wrote Mekasna.
“This scene took place in Gouze, 20km from Paoua, where the Séléka elements were refuelled and transported to Boguila, watched helplessly by the vigilante groups, and then deployed on the Boguila-Bemal-Betoko-Bemaide route.
“We do not understand this sudden turnaround of MINUSCA, whose main mission is to protect the civilian population by fighting the armed groups that will attack them. It has never been agreed in any resolution that MINUSCA should cooperate with Séléka, made up of foreign mercenaries, to bring about genocide in the sub-prefecture of Paoua.”

Bocaranga, September 2017

On Friday 22 September, armed men attacked the north-western town of Bocaranga, forcing the vast majority of its 15,000 inhabitants, including women and children, to flee.

Children and women are the main victims of violence in the Central African Republic. (Photo: World Watch Monitor).

Two armed groups: the 3R (Retour, Réclamation et Réhabilitation), a predominantly Fulani group led by Abass Sidiki, and MPC, led by Mohamed Bahar attacked and overran the town, without any reaction from the MINUSCA troops, believed to be a contingent from Bangladesh.
On Sunday 24 September, MINUSCA said its troops had intervened and repelled the attack, but in reality the town was still under rebel control. MINUSCA eventually launched an offensive, on 7-8 October, to remove the rebels from Bocaranga.

Zemio, September 2017

On 1 September, dozens of people were killed as armed men invaded the south-eastern town of Zemio, despite the presence of UN troops, believed to be from Morocco.
The assailants, believed to be mercenaries from Sudan, looted and ransacked a number of properties, including a health centre. They also looted the Catholic Church compound, prompting some 15,000 people who had sought refuge there to flee to neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo, including Fr. Jean Alain Zembi, the rector of Zemio, and his colleague, Fr. Désiré Blaise Kpangou.
Zemio had been plagued by violence since 28 June, when armed gangs overran it, cutting telephone lines and forcing half of its 50,000 inhabitants to flee. In a series of messages on Facebook, Fr. Zembi and Fr. Kpangou had warned over the presence of militiamen in the area.
Fr. Zembi accused UN peacekeepers stationed in Zemio of “deliberately abandoning” his town and leaving parishioners to be murdered by rebels. “You were warned, but you deliberately decided to abandon this town,” he wrote. He added: “This community is being sacrificed, and I will hold you responsible for all those dead and preparing to die.”
“If you don’t come soon to disarm these people, we will have to organise confessions and a final Mass and viaticum [giving Communion to and anointing someone before death] and prepare ourselves and the rest of the displaced people here for the worst,” Fr. Kpangou told UN forces on Facebook.
On 2 September, Father Louis Tongagnesi was hacked to death by armed men at his farm in Zambaguia village, near Zemio. According to local sources, the killing was carried out a Séléka off-shoot, the Union for Peace in Central Africa (UPC), a mainly Muslim and Fulani militia, and one of 13 armed groups that signed a peace agreement broached by the Roman Catholic Sant’Egidio peace group, in Rome, in June 2017.
The head of the UN Office for humanitarian affairs in CAR condemned the killing. “The murder of the Catholic priest in Zemio is a cowardly and abject crime. I strongly condemn it,” wrote Najat Rochdi on Twitter.

Despite its 12,000 peacekeepers, the UN has failed to curb violence in Central African Republic. (Photo: World Watch Monitor)

Gambo, August 2017

On 5-6 August, dozens of civilians were slaughtered in an attack by UPC militants in the south-eastern town of Gambo. Most of the victims were women and children, and many had their throats slit; others were burnt alive in their properties. Ten Red Cross workers were among those killed.
An undetermined number of houses and properties, including the Catholic compound, were also looted and burned down.
The Moroccan UN troops, who were in the town during the violence, did nothing to prevent the killings or protect civilians, several local sources told World Watch Monitor.

Bangassou, July 2017

In July, the Bishop of Bangassou, Juan José Aguirre Muños, demanded the withdrawal of the Moroccan contingent accused of indiscriminate killing of civilians in Bangassou.
His demand was seconded by the President of the Islamic Council in the CAR, one of the country’s top three religious leaders and a founding member of its Interfaith Platform.
“The people are witnesses and victims of the activity in [Bangassou] of the Moroccan contingent of UN peacekeepers,” said Imam Oumar Kobine Layama, part of a delegation sent from Bangui to investigate the situation in and around Bangassou.
“The people want the contingent to leave Bangassou because it has failed in its duty to protect civilians. These troops do little or nothing when the militiamen attack. Some say the Moroccan military are the cause of several cases of murder because they shoot civilians point-blank, calling them militia,” he added.

Alindao, May 2017

In a report published last September, Amnesty International denounced the failure of UN troops to protect civilians in the eastern prefecture of Basse-Kotto, including a massacre in the town of Alindao (on 8 May 2017) in which 130 people were killed, though credible sources estimated the toll reached several hundred.
The Alindao bloodbath was attributed to UPC militants.
The victims were Christian townspeople and villagers, perceived as supporting armed groups that oppose UPC’s rule, points out the report.
Annie, 36, recalled how the assailants captured her and her husband in Alindao on 10 May. “‘We’re going to do something to you Christians that won’t be forgotten for many generations,’” she said the men told them, before one fighter raped her and another fighter raped her husband. “After raping my husband, he shot him in the head,” Annie told Amnesty International.
“Although MINUSCA troops have saved many lives in the Central African Republic, their failures risk destroying public confidence in the peacekeeping mission and are putting thousands of people in danger,” said Amnesty’s Joanne Mariner. “Many Central Africans are now expressing increasing cynicism about MINUSCA’s willingness and ability to restore order, and about the mission’s capacity to conform to even a limited civilian protection mandate.”

Moving from loneliness to itimacy in marriage Part 2 from focusonthefamily.com

Psychologist David Clarke offers several practical ideas for couples to improve their marital intimacy, from regularly scheduled talk times, to spiritual leadership and being accountable to others. (Part 2 of 2)

Opening:

Excerpt:
Dr. David Clarke: But a lady will love a man with every ounce of her heart until she’s finally ... and not having... being honest about her needs or “I’m very unhappy,” until the last day. And then when that last (Sound of snap) ounce is gone, boom! I call it hitting the wall. She’s done. And you literally cannot ... other than an act of God, get that woman back. She’s through.
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: Well, that’s a dramatic statement and it’s from Dr. David Clarke. He was our guest on the last Focus on the Family broadcast, as he talked about a significant problem in marriages today, where there’s an unemotional closed-off husband and a lonely wife. Our host is Focus president, Jim Daly; I’m John Fuller and Jim, Dr. Clarke says, don’t give up. You do have some hope, even if it seems like it’s all darkness around you right now.
Jim Daly: John, what I heard last time, first and foremost, it’s a good conversation for us to be having at Focus on the Family and I hope it’s helpful to you. If you missed last time, download the program or get the CD or listen to it on your Smartphone or your iPhone. It’s there. But uh ... what I want to say is that, we touched on that idea of loneliness, even though you’re married. And um ... you know, I have a lot of people in my life, that uh ... are experiencing that. It breaks my heart. And at times, even Jean and I feel this way, to--
John: Sure.
Jim: --be honest. It’s ... it’s normal for us to be isolated at times, because of the way God has wired us. Men can be very dense and we don’t get it. And we think talking about fixing the lawn mower or watchin’ the game on Sunday, that’s communication. My wife sat right next to me. She loved the Bronco game, too.
David: Quality time.

Body:

Jim: Yeah, that’s not it and so, I’m looking forward to getting back to it.We said last time that more than 60 percent of people who report feelings of loneliness are currently married. And 4 out of 5 are dealing with lonelinessin their marriages. That’s a big problem and uh ... we want to address it today. So, let me say to Dr. David Clarke, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
David: Well, thanks so much.
Jim: I ... hey, David, I love your energy. I love the way you approach it. You counsel thousands of couples in your practice there in Florida. So, you’re speaking from experience. You see it. We talked last time and we were pretty hard on the guys. But we talked last time about um ... how we’re failing as men to get it. Yet, it’s always that 80-20 rule and you see that in your practice. It’s a general statement uh ... that guys are usually the ones that don’t get it. But sometimes it’s the woman, isn’t it?
David: Yes, it is. Fifteen-20 percent of the time it’s themanwho is in the position of, “Gosh, I’m lonely and she’s not open to me physically or emotionally or frankly, spiritually,” and so, the roles are reversed. I’m thinkin’ of a guy right now that I’ve been working with who is a sensitive, kind, loving man, pursues his wife. Because of some background issues and who she is and I’ve met her, too, we’ve done a little work, oh, she’s just closedoffand he’s been dying. So, I handed them the book. I said, here’s the process I want you to take her through, lovingly, but firmly and everything could change.
Jim: Hm.
David: ‘Cause he is losing hope.
Jim and John: Hm.
John: And the book you’re talking about there, Dr. Clarke, isMarried...But Lonely: Seven Steps You Can Take With or Without Your Spouse’s Help. And uh ... it really is a good workbook that is very practical, givesthe big picture, but gives some very tangible things you can do to help kind of break down those walls of loneliness.
Jim: Uh ... last time, Dave, we were pretty hard, like I said, on the guys. Um ... let’s turn the corner a little bit and talk about women andtheirrole in marriage. Um ... they’re really firing, as we’ve talked about (Chuckling) in other broadcasts, that their brains are like spaghetti, that’s one way, where they’re all interconnected. They feel things. They know things usually before husbands know things. They can feel it. They’re intuitive. We talk about that, how women are intuitive. Uh ... what is happening in the brain chemistry first and foremost with couples, the gender differences? And then what failures trip women up in this area?
David: Yeah, good questions. The woman has a lot to say. Everything that happens to a woman has meaning. I’m in the checkout counter buying some Gatorade, you know. I might say hi to the lady or ... or say hi to the guy behind me. It means nothing to me. I’ve forgotten about it halfway to the car. It’s over. Not for Sandy. That’s an event of meaning and significance.
And that lady in line, we talked a bit about our kids and it was great and she has a daughter, our daughter’s age. I don’t care! I talk ... I care about my daughter, not that lady’s daughter, but it’s important to Sandy. So, they have a lot of material and women make the mistake of wanting to share allof itwith their men.
Now you have to be selective. If you talk too much, well, then he’s just ... his brain is overwhelmed and it--
Jim: He--
David: --will shut down.
Jim: --he really backs up, doesn’t he?
David: Oh, yeah.
Jim: I mean, I can feel it, being a male. If you get too much data about something that you think is trivial, you emotionally kind of back up and you start thinking about your checklist or your to-do’s. Now women, it tends to draw them forward, doesn’t it? They’re getting to know something--
David: Right.
Jim: --about the person. It’s funny with Jean, you know, we ... football ... I enjoy football. And she said, “Well, I would enjoy it more if I knew more about the guy’s family.” (Laughter) Now I think, oh, my goodness. I don’t have enough capacity to think about--
David: Who cares? The guy…
Jim: --the quarterback’s--
David: --can complete passes!
Jim: --wife and kids. Who wants to think about the quarterback’s wife and kids? Well, that’s a woman. If I knew what kind of husband was he, is he a nice guy. And ... but that’s how they think--
David: Oh--
Jim: --isn’t it?
David: --always the back story. Now if women can limit that, that’s why I have, I say four times a week on four days of the week, 30-minute couple talk times. The blonde and I do this. We’ve done this for 25 years now and it’s worked like a charm. AndI can give her 30 minutes of concentrated time, where she can talk and express and throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. And certain things I’ll respond to, certain things I won’t, but we can develop some great conversations. I can’t do two hours.
Jim: Can you do that with humor? Can the man make that point so she understands it in a way that you can both laugh about it?
David: Well, I think you’d better use humor. (Laughter)
Jim: Yeah.
David: I really do.
Jim: You know, just ... I can’t take--
David: Right.
Jim: --too much, Hon, but let’s--
David: Right.
Jim: --go for 30 minutes and see how I do.
David: I’ll say to Sandy, “You know, you ... you may notice at times I zo ... “how men zone out. And then they’ll ask you, “What did I just say?” “Well, I ... I don’t know.” You know, that’s the ... I say this is my brain. I have no control of this. It’s automatically shutting down to protect my circuits.
John: Hm.
David: I’m overloaded just like that. But that’s a good indication, okay, there’s too much going on. Let’s take a break. Let me respond to the first 10 minutes here and then we can have a conversation. I can’t take 30 straight minutes. Gotta have a dialogue.
Jim: Let’s talk about the bitter woman, the woman that has been in this marriage for 15, 20, 30 years. And she’s experienced this lack of intimacy emotionally. Um ... her response to that can become part of the problem, I would imagine, right?
David: Oh, yeah.
Jim: Describe that.
David: It’s death by 1,000 cuts. It ... we look over 10 years, 5 years, 20 years and she has been disappointed so many times. She’s asked for intimacy and been denied. Asked for intimacy and been denied. The guy doesn’t know what he’s doing. She knows exactly what’s happening and she’s crushed.
She’ll take just so many of those-- so yes, she is bitter. She’s frustrated. She’s angry. I say she has a right to be. Her fault is not sharing that with the guy. He doesn’t have acluethat, that’s all inside of her. Well, she’s acting kinda funny or I guess our marriage is not as great as it used to be, but yeah, that’s fine. No, he doesn’t know she’s on the verge of a meltdown and of walking away from him.
Jim: Does she assume that the guy is cognitively rejecting her, that--
David: Oh, yeah.
Jim: --he is ... I mean, he’s thinkin’ this through. Surely he knows what I’m feeling and he is rejecting me--when guys aren’t there.
David: No, she’s sure of it. I correct ‘em in my office all the time and they’re shocked when I say, “Bill, did you know?” “I didn’t know.” “He’s lying.” “No, he didn’t know.” It’s obvious to them.
It would be obvious to another woman. Too bad you married a man. He doesn’t get it. So, this makes it even worse for her. He has hurt me so many times and he knows what he’s doing and it’s intentional. “No, that’s not true.” The good news is, that’s nottrue.
John: That’s a light bulb moment right there, Jim, for a lot of our listeners, women who are thinking, he gets it. And I remember when Dena had to say, “If I have to explain it to you, then somethin’s wrong.” (Laughter) And I ... I just had to look at her and say, “You have to explain it to me.”
Jim: Somethin’s wrong.
John: Yeah.
Jim: Uh-oh, but you don’t want to say that either.
John: But ... but how many women would you say, Dr. Clarke, areright there? They think he gets it. I mean, how ... how many times do you have to say--
David: Oh, man. Most.
John: --he really doesn’t.
Jim: Well, and that’s the pain they’re feeling. They’re feeling like he’s outright disrespecting me.
David: Hm. And it’s obvious to them. We have this interaction and they’ll say to the guy, “We ... we were watching the show and I asked you to talk to me.” This is key for her. And he said, “No, I want to watch the rest of the show.” He didn’t get the message. She didn’t do it clearly enough. And so, she thinks he re ... intentionally rejected me.
Jim: Hm.
David: Well, later that night when he wants to be close with her and she says no, he’s wondering what’s goin’ on? That’s just the way she is, I guess. No, that’s because of what happened earlier.
Jim: Hm.
David: But he doesn’t know.
Jim: Dr. Clarke, applying the spiritual overtone to this as Christians, um ... do you laugh or do you sigh? Is ... does God have a great sense of humor or what is His purpose in creating us the way He created us?
David: (Laughing) Boy ...
Jim: That’s a big question.
David: Boy, it is. I am convinced though after 30 years of doing this, that He’s forcing us to put Him at the center of the marriage. It can’t work any other way.
And to follow what He says in the Bibleandto work together. This book is all about working together and joining together. Okay, Honey, I will join you in this process, go through these steps together. And it’s the going through together and the learning and the understanding that creates real intimacy. If we could just do it, it wouldn’t be that great.
Jim: And is His purpose in this in marriage, I mean, it says that He created us in His image, both male and female, is it because we complement each other if we’re healthy and we realize it, that I have deficits that I can’t make up in a fallen state. My wife has uh ... attributes that I need. And if I recognize that, we actually can work like a hand in a glove in a healthy marriage. Is that the goal?
David: Oh, yeah, I think so. God is ... of course, He’s brilliant; He’s God. He knows everything. We’re so incredibly different, but those differencesmake it happen.
‘Cause there’s never-ending possibilities of combinations with a woman, ‘cause you don’t understand ... you will never understand her--the moods, the emotions, the reactions. What! Are you kidding me? Can’t you just be like me? That would be disaster. (Laughter)
Jim: Hm.When you look at the Christian life, um ... you know, we’re all trying to first of all, accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, the Son of God. And we acknowledge that. I think for men, it becomes more difficult after that, because Jesus was perfect. And when you see Him interacting with people, uh ... it was perfect and the way He dealt with grace and truth was perfect. And as men, um ... and being the spiritual leader of the home, that expectation’s pretty high. And so often, I think women can connect with the Lord because of how He talked to the woman at the well, what He expressed to the woman caught in adultery. And they ... you know, they get an idea of Jesus and Heconnectsemotionally.
And they turn to their husband and go, “You’re no Jesus.” (Laughing) Um ... the response often is, “Well, Jesus often raised people from the dead, too and I ... I’m not seemingly able to do that.” So, how do we recognize that God, in His perfection, exhibited both these male and what some might think female attributes, that He was engaged emotionally, um ... how do we raise our game?
David: I think we can learn from Jesus, to study His life. You study the Gospels, how He interacted with all the people and it’s overwhelming on the one hand. Man, this guy was really good. (Laughing) Of course, He’s perfect. But we can learn from that and then we take it in small chunks. No woman is asking for perfection like today or next month or maybe even next year. We take small chunks. And the book will guide people through small chunks of getting this skill down. Let’s move to the next skill and they will over time learn and it will start to really make a difference. So, it’s not all at once. It’s a lot to take in.
Jim: Hm.
John: Well, I certainly can relate to what you’re saying there, Dr. Clarke. And David Clarke is our guest today on Focus on the Family hosted by Jim Daly. Uh ... as Jim said earlier, if you didn’t hear the entire conversation to this point or if you’d like to follow up on Dr. Clarke’s book,Married...But Lonely: Seven Steps You Can Take With or Without Your Spouse’s Help, uh ... we’d invite you to stop bywww.focusonthefamily.com/radio.
You know, we’ve talked during this past couple of days about how to kind of broach the subject of, I’m ... I’m lonely in this marriage. And I’m guessing that many women, Dr. Clarke, just don’t feel like they can go there. They’re not confrontational. It probably would be easy to sit and simmer. What’s your advice though?
David: I’d tell ‘em look and ... and I try to get their attention. If you don’t do this, with God’s help and the help of a team, frankly, my help if you’re using the book or seeing me in therapy, man alive, you’re ... it’s gonna get worse. It will never get better. And you will eventually hit the wall and you will want out. I’ve gotta convince them of that.
John: So, this isn’t a matter of just, I guess this is how it is and I can live with this.
David: No, it’s not gonna be that way. She’s gonna be ... and I’ll say, you will physically break down. Women are not made to hand this kind of misery. They’re sensitive creatures. They’ll break down physically. You’ll break down emotionally, depression, anxiety and there’ll be so ... a spiritual problem you’ll have with God. You don’t want any of that, but it’s so important. Your marriage is so important to you. It’s not like an option. Well, I guess I can live ... the man can do that, shouldn’t, but can. You cannot do that, ma’am.
So ... and I say, we’ll make it easy. You can ... I actually have them write it out and it’s gonna be the most difficult thing they’ve ever done probably. But write it out and just read it to him. Say, “Don’t respond at this session.” Just hand it to him. It’s clear. We can work on it together. The book has examples and just walk away. That ... you can do that. I think I can do that. Okay. So, you cut to suit. Some women are ready for it. Some are not quite ready. I’ve got to get them ready--
John: Hm.
David: --because if you don’t do it, you ... right around the corner is disaster. We actually have disaster now, but it’s gonna get worse.
Jim: Uh ... Dave, you talk in the book about “shunning,” which is a word we don’t use in the culture much. What is it and where is the biblical reference for it?
David: This is the last resort. Let’s say the woman follows this plan, goes all the way through the steps and the man simply will not join her in the process. Okay. You have done four or five months of this and he simply is not gonna change and he’s not gonna get it. And now you ... now you know he’s intentional, because you have laid it out--my needs, my resentments, what I want. You haven’t read the five, six and seven chapters in the book. We know now he’s a clear and serious sinner, because he’s violating the Scripture concerning marriage, the most important of all human relationships. It is sacred to God. So, now we go into Matthew 18:15 through 17.
And you ... this lady is going to, after you’ve have him through the process, she’s gonna confront him individually. She’s already done that, one or two witnesses the Bible says, men that he knows that have the guts to confront him and she’ll tell them everything. If he responds to that, fine, repents, we’ll go through the book, we’ll change.
Or if he doesn’t respond to that, then we take it to the church. [The] church leaders need to step to the plate. That’s what leadership is about, difficult situations, men on man, we’ve called you in. Your wife has talked to us. We’re gonna help you through this process. If he refuses eventhat, okay, now we get to the final phrase in Matthew 18:17 and that is, treat him as a Gentile or as a tax gatherer. This is extremely serious in the Christian community. And I take that to mean, you will pull back from him. Again, last resort to get his attention. You don’t leave him yet. We’re not talking separation. That may be what God guides you to do, but now we’re gonna pull back and really get his attention.
Youare stillin relationship, but it’s not much of one. You’re not gonna cook for him. You’re not gonna clean for him. You’re not gonna have any physical intimacy with him. You’re not gonna drive with him to church. You’re gonna tell the kids what’s going on. This is again ... is the end of the chain. He’s had umpteen opportunities.
John: Hm.
David: This is a stiff-necked sinner. He is no longer a good guy. He’s a dirt ball--
Jim: Uh ...
David: --a sinning dirt ball.
Jim: I mean, David, that’s very blunt and very straightforward. One of the things that it appears that we’re missing in the church today is that kind of accountability.
David: Right.
Jim: We’ll place that on the world to expect them to behave better, but we don’t do that within our own community of--
David: Yes.
Jim: --believers. We look the other way, so often unfortunately.
David: Yeah.
Jim: And when that couple that you know does divorce, you kinda just shrug your shoulders. Rather than, where were we to engage people--
David: Right.
Jim: --in the way that we should? I think it’s one of the most critical ingredients that we’re missing today in terms of discipline within the believing community.
David: Oh, I couldn’t agree more.
Jim: And I ... what do we do to get that back? I mean, you’re doing it as a counselor. You’ve got the label. You’ve got the education. But how do we as the laity, how do we and for pastors, how do we reengage this so we are healthier as a community of believers?
David: I say, key people in the church, rank and file people, need to go to their pastor, have a sit-down meeting and explain what is your process of church discipline? What kind of accountability are you under, are the leaders under? What’s happening in our church? And not in a ... in a sarcastic or mean way, but I want to be part of the solution. Because so many wives I talk to, particularly, and men that want to confront, they find no one to help them.
Jim: Hm.
David: Church leaders turn away. Well, that’s too bad, but we don’t want to offend him. That’s not what the Bible says. Or I can’t find one godly man to talk to my husband. I can’t findone.
John: Hm.
David: I say, for heaven’s sake, all right, we’re gonna have to move through those steps the best way we can, even without help.
So I think we have to talk to the pastors. The pastors are so critical. So many well-meaning men that just don’t understand this and don’t want to offend people, people leave the church. They’re leaving anyway, pastor. They’re gonna get divorced and they’re going to leave. So, let’s see if we can catch them first and build this accountability in.
Jim: Uh ... Dave, you’re describing something that catches my attention, ‘cause we’ve talked aboutMarried...But Lonely, really from the woman’s perspective. But what you just said caught my attention and that is, men are lonely, too because we don’t have those intimate relationships. When a woman says that my husband doesn’t have a godly friend who can confront him,that’sa problem, too.
David: Right. He probably doesn’t have any friends period--many men are in that situation--or just casual friends, talk about sports.
Jim: Sports buddies.
David: We pass the plate, you know, as ushers, yeah, but we do ... or the neighbor guy.Yeah, we’re talkin’ about a deep committed, you know me and I know you and I know you ... we know our weaknesses and we hold each other accountable. I’ve got my guy, Rocky Glisson, every Saturday morning. I’m here at Focus, all right this week and so, I’ll be talking about that with Rocky on this Saturday. But every Saturday morning, Pop & Sons Diner, Tampa, Florida, we are at our one booth, Grace, our waitress and we have life. I know Rocky and I’ll confront him on things; he’ll confront me.
I’m a workaholic, so he has to really watch me. And that has changed my life. We have an intimate relationshipas men. That’s the guy Sandy would send to me, no doubt about it. And he’s 6’ tall and he’s mean, so I’m not gonna take that chance. (Laughter) But I don’t ... he won’t have to do that, ‘causehe’sholding me accountable.
Jim: You know, it’s interesting. I’d never thought of this, but to ask your wife who would you like to see in my life, one of my guy friends be closer to me, that could hold me accountable? Is that a question you would encourage asking your spouse?
David: Oh, by all means.
Jim: Would she know in a heartbeat?
David: Oh, she would. Women know everything. They know the whole cast of characters. Are you kidding?
She would say, “Bob Smith,” you know, “Terry White.” She’d know it. (Sound of snap) Oh, they’re intuitive and they intuitively know this would be a good guy. In fact, the first guy the guy mentions is usually not the right guy.
Jim: No, it’s the easy guy.
David: Exactly, and she goes, “Oh, I know that guy; he wouldn’t hold anyone accountable. If you were driving over a cliff, he’d say, “Well, I guess we’re not gonna play golf on Saturday.” He wouldn’t say anything. So, she knows. It’d be a great ... a gutsy question and a good question to ask.
Jim: I uh ... you know, it’s a funny story, but a friend of mine who was golfing with another man and they were having some difficulties in their marriage. And the ... both wives knew the situation obviously. And so, when they got back from golf, you know, four or five hours together, uh ... the wife of my friend asked, “Did you talk about the marriage and ... and what’s goin’ on in their marriage?” He said, “No, not really.” And she exploded on him, saying, “How could you be with that guy for five hours, riding in the cart with him. The guy’s goin’ through marital difficulty, maybe on the brink of divorce and you didn’ttalkabout it?” He said, “No, we didn’t even talk about it.”
David: That’s guys. (Laughter) We were playin’ golf. (Laughter)
Jim: Yeah, we didn’t ... we’re not gonna bring those things up when you’re trying to putt. I mean, that’s ridiculous though. It almost is insane, isn’t it?
David: It is. There are some great men’s ministries in churches across the country and they are doing a good job, but not near enough.
And so many men are not involved. We have to reach out to the guys. Guys will respond with a call, with an invite. Don’t force ‘em just to show up. They’re not gonna show up. We have to reach out and get them in. Once they see how it works, they’re gonna love it and they’re gonna keep coming--
Jim: Is that--
David: --back.
Jim: --one reason, Dave, that a lot of men kind of um ... struggle in churches, today, because we perceive them as catering to women. Um ... they’re not “guy” ministries. We don’t feel like we fit in. It ... it seems all about feelings. And there’s nothing too experiential in that environment. We sit in a pew. We don’t move. We’re still like little boys, huh?
David: Yeah.
Jim: We want to move while we relate to each other. We want to go do something.
David: Right.
Jim: What are we missing in the church environment that would attract men to live more godly lives if they simply had a better environment?
David: You know, it’s always gonna be other men. If we can have a cadre of solid men who really get it, who will reach out and involve. If a guy comes into a church, he should beimmediately, if not sooner, linked up with another guy, just (Sound of fingers snapping) like (Snap) that (Snap). We don’t work that way. I got my friends. I don’t need any more friends.
This is not the message of the Bible. We include people and we set people up.We have a mentor relationship, maybe an older man. There are so many older, wise, godly men just sitting there, maybe serving, but not mentoringyounger men. Let’s tap that resource. China seems to get it and it’s a godless nation by and large. You know, let’s have these older men or peer men step up, mentor these guys and then teach them what they don’t know.
‘Cause he ... yeah, you’re right, Jim. They’re in church. I don’t know any of this stuff. I’m not good at this stuff. I’ll attend, because it makes my wife happy, but that’s about it. If another guy would come alongside and disciple me and mentor me, through not just sitting in a room talkin’ about spiritual things, but sports and other stuff, we’ll play golf; we’ll have ... we’ll have these barbecues. What man wouldn’t go to a barbecue and watch the Super Bowl or whatever it might be or the football thing.Well, that’s how you get men involved. And then along the way, you can teach them and then they get it. They don’t get it at first, but a few months in, they’ll get it.
Jim: Dave, we’ve gone all the way around the discussion and I think we’ve covered it and I, again, hope people will get a copy of this, John, particularly guys uh ... but it might be the wives that pick it up for their husbands.
David: Right.
Jim: And uh ... but let’s go back to the very beginning, that couple that’s struggling desperately. The wife is feeling so lonely in the relationship, that she’s contemplating maybe separating or maybe even divorce. As we wrap up the program, speak to that person. Speak to that woman who’s feeling that. Give her three steps. What things can she do right now that can help potentially her relationship?
David: I would say, No. 1, you have to bring this to God. Now if you honestly bring it to God and share your heart like we see King David doin’ in the ... all the way through the Psalms, absolute honestly, He’ll be able to deal with that and He’ll give you hope.
And the second thing is, I ... there is a plan here that will help you. It’s helped thousands of couples. It will help you, too. If we take these steps, it’s a good chance, a very good chance your decent loving husband will respond and begin to change. So, don’t give up hope. Take it to God and you have to hang ... not just hang in there, ‘cause the hang in there and keep loving him, is not working. Our divorce rate indicates that. We now have to do something different. Well I’ve got-- this is the something different and I think it’s gonna work. And so, if they key into the plan, read the book, understand the steps and it’ll give them a game plan and there’s always hope in a game plan. We’re not wingin’ it here--step, step, step. I’m as specific as you can get. Like doing surgery, you better have the steps down or they’re gonna make a mess out of it. Well, this ... I know this works!
Jim: Hm.
David: I think you’re gonna get through and of course, I give them hope. You can make it and I think you will make it.
Jim: Dave, why don’t we end today by praying for those couples? Uh ... can I ask you to do that? ‘Cause you know the emotions. You’ve dealt with it in your practice. You know what couples are going through. Um ... can you pray for them right now?
David: I’d love to. Dear Father, um ... there are people, as you know, listening to this ... this radio show that touches so many lives, Father, that are really lonely in their marriages--men as well as women, Father--and they are in a desperate situation. No one knows. Their spouse really doesn’t know.
Father, would you comfort and guide that person right now. Help them to feel Your presence and strength and guidance. And give them hope that this can change and it will change with a plan and with your help. It’s the desire of your heart that everything change in a marriage, not overnight, but over time, step, step, step, over a few weeks, a month, two or three months. Things couldreallystart to change, Father. We ask that You would give them courage and get Satan out of their lives. He’s pushin’them so hard to give up. That’s what the culture says. Give up; move on. Sign ... find someone else. They’re gonna be in the same spot 10 years from now. We know that.
Stats show it. So Father, would they stay in this relationship and not just stay static and put up with it, but start speaking truth, lovingly, firmly, go through the steps. And we pray for every couple in this situation, that it would change. And we ... we are including everyone. We don’t talk in percentages. We want 100 percent of those listening to have this experience of a wonderful marriage, a Song of Solomon marriage, Father. We’re trusting You with these things in Christ’s name, amen.
Jim: Amen. Dr. David Clarke, author of the book,Married...But Lonely, thank you for being with us.
David: Well, thank you so much.

Closing:

John: We so appreciate Dr. Clarke and his insights and know that you’ve benefitted from this two-day conversation with him in which we’ve offered hope to married couples who know something has to change. And it may be that you’re not facing a crisis but it is time to work on your relationship.
Focus on the Family can help. We have resources for you like our Counseling team, AND — for those marriages that are in serious trouble — our marriage intensive is called Hope Restored and we’re so grateful for God’s work in and through that effort.
Learn more when you call 800-232-6459. That’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or visit focusonthefamily.com/radio.
Please, when you get in touch, please consider a generous financial gift to this family ministry. Day in, day out, we’re trying to strengthen and help marriages and we rely on the generosity of friends like you to do that in a more effective way. So donate today and we’ll say thanks by sending a complimentary copy of Dr. Clarke’s book, Married... But Lonely. And while you have us, ask about a CD or download of this conversation as well. You can donate and get resources at focusonthefamily.com/radio or once more, our phone number, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY.
Coming up next time on this broadcast, you’ll hear how to avoid the trap of people-pleasing and focus instead on serving God.
Teaser:
Jennie Allen: I was now trying to carry the burden of my life. I was trying to carry parenting, I was trying to carry the work He’d given me, I was trying to carry all the people He’d given me to love and to serve and to minister to and I wasn’t happy. I had lost my joy.

Moving from loneliness to itimacy in marriage Part 1 from focusonthefamily.com

Psychologist David Clarke offers several practical ideas for couples to improve their marital intimacy, from regularly scheduled talk times, to spiritual leadership and being accountable to others. (Part 1 of 2)

John Fuller: On today’s Focus on the Family, we’ll investigate a ... a paradox and that is, often people get married to avoid loneliness, but many times, especially women experience loneliness within that marriage. And we’re gonna talk about how that’s possible and what you can do about it. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller and Jim to uh ... illustrate some of the emotion that many feel in regard to loneliness in marriage, we have these comments.

Excerpt:

Woman #1: My husband, Ben is into everything. He has a ball game or a meeting nearly every single night of the week. And then if he’s home, he’s on the phone talking over strategies for the next game or meeting. It’s like he has time for everyone except for me.

Woman #2: If friends were enough, I wouldn’t have gotten married. I want my husband. I wanthimto be with me, to share my life on a daily basis.

Woman #3: I was in the grocery store checkout line and the man in front of me, all he did was just glance back and smile. He looked so kind. I don’t know what happened, but when I got back to my car, I burst into tears. I guess I finally had to admit how lonely I felt.

End of Excerpt

Jim Daly: Hm. Uh ... you can hear it in those descriptions and uh ... to be in a marriage, but to feel utter loneliness has to be a terrible place. And we want to talk about that today. It is amazing how many people um ... identify with this situation.Psychology Todaymagazine said that 63 percent of the people who report feelings of loneliness are currentlymarried. I mean, that’s incredible. Um ... I even said to Jean, “Sometimes do you feel lonely in our marriage?” I mean, that’s a pretty daring question for a husband…

John: It is.

Jim: And she said, “Yeah.” You know, “Sometimes you’re busy and we don’t get that time to talk and communicate emotionally.” And I think every one of us can fall prey to the hectic pace of life and forget perhaps the most important people around us and we want to talk about that today.

John: Well, we have some good news about, as I said, how you can deal with this in a proactive and a very positive way, thanks to our special guest here who’s joined us today.

Body:

Jim: And Dr. David Clarke, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

Dr. David Clarke: It is great to be here.

Jim: You know, there was another stat that caught my attention, too, Dave and that was 4 out of 5Christianwomen say they experience that kind of loneliness. Um ... that’s 80 percent. I mean, that’s a big number. So, the point of all that is, it’s not just the non-believing community that has these feelings of loneliness, but those of us that are Christians, as well. What’s happening at the macro level? What’s happening in the big picture? Why such feelings of loneliness?

David: Uh ... I think it’s just the nature of the beast. Marriage breaks down over time. You have the initial infatuation. That gets you married. We love each other. Everything you say is brilliant. I’m so connected.

And then just the routines of life, children come along, the chores, the guy’s building his career. Now add to that, we don’t know what we’re doing to create intimacy. People don’t have the skills, [the] breakdown of the family. Focus is fighting that, of course, what we’re doin’ today, but the breakdown is so significant, people don’t have the tools anymore. Guys have never had the tools.

Jim: And really, the time, but you’ve written this book,Married...But Lonely. I think that title, I mean, when I have uh ... in preparation for this show, simply mentioned that to females, they get it. They connect with that title. I think us men, we’re goin’, “What? Of course, we’re not lone ... we’re married!” There’s two of us. Uh ... what did you see happening that gave you the clarity, even for that title,Married...But Lonely?

David: Well, these little stories we heard just a few minutes ago from these ladies, I have heard a million times at my seminars, in my therapy office, oh, just one after the other, good solid Christian women. I am so lonely. I love my husband. He’s a good guy. He’s not in serious sin and ... and he loves me,but... and then they go into what these ladies just said. We’re not together a lot. There’s no real intimacy. I’m dying inside. And the key is, they’re not letting the husband know that. The guy has no clue. He’s perfectly happy. So, when that woman hits the wall and leaves him, he is the most stunned guy on earth.

John: Hm.

David: Wh ... [are] you kidding me? We used to watch shows together on the couch. He doesn’t get it. And by then it’s too late. I’m tryin’ to catch these ladies sooner, rather than later.

Jim: And in that definition, I mean, we really are talking about an epidemic, aren’t we? When we say 60, 70, 80 percent of people are encountering anything, that’s... that’sa lot of people. And what do we do? I mean, how do we equip men to be better listeners, better ... uh ... I gotta ask you this question. Are we expecting too much out of men?

David: You know, I don’t think so and that’s the good news. (Laughter) If a guy loves his wife and he has an IQ of over 100--most men do--he can learn. I had to learn. I’m a clinical psychologist. I didn’t have a clue. Ten years into our marriage “the blonde” is saying to me, “I’m lonely. This isn’t working.”

Jim: Now you refer to your wife as “the blonde”--

David: Yeah, just--

Jim: --the blonde.

David: --so people can catch--

John: And she’s good with that.

David: --that. She is great with that. (Laughter) It’s been 25 years, she ... I’ve never said it different and she would tell me (Laughter), believe me.

Ten years in, we’re ... three ... you’ve given me three wonderful kids and ... and um ... one’s coming and we were just kinda losing it. Uh ... still loving each other, but not “in love.” So, you have to get the man’s attention. If the man ... get his attention, lead him through a series of steps like I cover in the book, he will learn. He’ll start to lead. Everything will click.

Jim: Well, and you talk about um ... you know, emphasizing good communication in marriage. You mentioned some of those things that detract from good communication, such as kids. Wh ... paint the picture in your counseling practice, what are the general themes that you see that prevent or at least get in the way of good communication?

David: We’ve got male-female differences. First of all, guys clam up. We don’t like to talk personally. We’ll talk about sports, the lawn mower is ... needs fixing, uh ... kid issues, career stuff. We don’t want to get into the personal things. We’re not made that way.

Jim: Well, okay.

David: It’s not our thing.

Jim: But why? Wh ... why are we made differently? What is preventing us from doing that?

David: I think it’s just genetic. This is what God has done to us (Laughing). Now He’s got a master plan, because if we work together and let the woman actually teach us, ‘cause she has many more skills interpersonally that we will ... ever will have. She’s got a Ph.D. in emotional intimacy and spiritual intimacy very often. We have like a third-grade education. So, we have to let the woman kind of guide us, teach us. And then we come together, we get it. I think it’s just genetic.

Plus we’re into control as men. When Sandy asks me a question and I feel a little pressured by her, I just clam up. Now you talkin’ to me? This is mywife. I love her. I’d throw myself in front of a bus for her, but I will not talk to her personally. Well, it’s crazy. I’ve had to learn that’s what she really needs.

Jim: How does a guy take that first step? I mean, you go home tonight and say, “Honey, I need to talk to you.” And then you’re stuck, like ... because you don’t know--

John: That ... that--

Jim: --what’s--

John: --strikes fear--

Jim: --the next question?

John: --into every guy listening’s (Laughter)--

David: Right.

John: --heart right then.

David: Exactly. Oh! I tell guys, look ... and I do this to this day. I’ve got a pad that I carry everywhere I go--in my car. I got three pads--in my car, at my office, at home. And I will write down things that happened to me during the day. If I don’t do that, I got nothing!

I come home without the pad, nothing to say. We have a couple talk time and say, “How was your day, Honey?” “I don’t know.” I’m tellin’ the God’s truth. I don’t know. I’ve forgotten. I have no memory.

But if I have written a few things down, then I have a little bit of material. Guys can use their phones, electronic devices whatever. I’m just a dinosaur; I use a pad. But Sandy wants to know, first of all, I thought about her. Dave’s written some stuff down.

Jim: So, that’s what’s being communicated there, the fact--

David: Right.

Jim: --that you thought enough of her to write something down to talk about tonight.

David: Nice vibe. Even if it’s, I bought batteries at the store for ... you know, on sale for 5 bucks (Laughing). Okay, it’s a start. But I ... she knows I care about her. But I’ve gotten better with this. I know what she wants. She wants personal things, emotions, anger, frustration, uh ... memories that come into my mind. Guys, this happens to guys during the day, but it’s just whoo! It’s gone if you don’t jot it down.

Jim: Now given the differentiation that we talked about between Christians and non-Christians, you would think that our walk with the Lord, our practices, our disciplines, reading Scripture, understanding what the Lord has done in male and femaleness, we’d better understand this. But you’re saying that basically there’s no difference statistically ... about women--Christian or non-Christian--that feel lonely in their marriages. Why is that? It sounds like we utterly fail.

David: Oh, we are. And sad to say, many Christians and pastors, the Christian community are on board with this problem in trying to get their attention, ‘cause the wife is told ... I see this in booksall the timeand from pastors from the pulpit. If you just love your husband, uh ... treat him well, meet his needs, then he’s gonna turn around and just love you back the way you really need to be loved.

Absolutely false. He’s a guy. He doesn’t know how anyway. He doesn’t know there’s a problem. And if you keep loving him, he’ll think everything’s fine. He will never get it. You have to get the man’s attention. You gotta sit down and say, “Honey, I’m not happy in our marriage. Here’s why. Let’s change it.”

Jim: But some women struggle because they’re offended by that. If I could express that, I think that’s fair, that if I’ve gotta say it that bluntly, then he doesn’t love me. So, it’s kind of a Catch-22. I mean, if that’s how a guy is wired, but yet a woman is offended by the wiring, what is a couple to do? How are they gonna break that impasse?

David: I say, “Ma’am, I hate to be the one that’ll break this to you; you’ve married a man.” (Laughter) He’s sitting here and this is ... I’m the sa ... and I’ll say, “I’m the same way.” You think I’m sensitive? You think I’m kind? You think I’m naturally good at this? I’m not. If I could bring my wife in, she’s my secretary now, I could bring her in, she’d tell you.

So you have to ... I have to get women to speak up, ‘cause they’re not speaking up. When they finally speak up, it’s “I’m leaving you. Uh ... the divorce papers are coming. I’m done.”

Jim: Which is tragic.

David: It’s awful.

Jim: Dave, talk about that. Play that through for us though. Let’s do a little role playing and um ... you counsel thousands of couples, so just pick one in your mind without naming them. But what does that look like? Um ... rather than getting to the divorce court level, um ... what could a woman say to her husband to get his attention? What can a man do to respond affirmatively? Play that uh ... discussion through for us.

David: The woman’s got to tell the man, “Look, Honey, I ... I want to have a meeting with you in three days. It’s about our marriage. It’s gonna be very serious. In fact, it’s extremely serious and I want ... the kids aren’t gonna be in the house when we have this meeting.”

And you set a time and that will get his attention. A decent guy, it’s like, wow! This is serious. If it’s over dinner or if we’re playing ball in the yard, he won’t get the message. 

So, we have that meeting and at that meeting, that’s when she, dead across says ... and she’s got prayer support and she’s got people praying for her and she’s ... and she might even read it. It’s a very brief conversation. I’m not happy in this marriage. You’re not meeting my needs. Frankly, we’re both at fault here. I’m not throwing any stones. I’ve not made my needs clear. I’m doing that now. I have a book and I have a plan. Will you join me in changing this marriage? No, “I love yous.” No “Gosh, you’re a great guy, but I’m a little upset.” See, men will only hear that and they won’t change.

You gotta get a man with a shovel to the head, metaphorically speaking, of course. And the ... my theory is--I’ve never seen this [un]proven--a decent man who does love his wife, okay, he’ll change. It’ll be tough at first, but you ... “I ... I can’t believe it. I’m shocked. I don’t know, but if this is what you’re telling me, then I’ll make these changes” and he’ll join her in the process.

Jim: You define that as “intimacy avoider” — that most men--85 percent of men--areIA’s.

David: Yep.

Jim: (Laughing) What does that mean. I mean, you’ve touched on it, but how are John and IIA’s?

John: Hey wait a minute. You ... we can talk about you (Laughter), but uh ...

Jim: Yeah ... no, I want to bring you into this.

David: Oh, I didn’t mean, John. (Laughter) I was talkin’ about you, Jim. (Laughter)

Jim: I’m callin’ Dena.

David: Look, I’m one. I think it’s by nature. Uh ... genetically, we’re made that way uh ... by God and then by training and cultural education, that’s the problem.

Most young guys grow up in a home when they see their dad and of course, they model after their dad, he doesn’t talk personally. He doesn’t romance mom. He doesn’t share anything. It ... they never see him cry or break down or get personal. And so, hey, that’s my guy. I’m gonna be just like that.

We watch the movies. People are being killed. They need to be killed. These are terrorists. But you know, there’s no ... no romance or softness of any kind. So, we learn pretty early on, that’s not what we do.

Well, you get married and the woman doesn’t realize that in infatuation and in dating, because nobody knows what the heck’s going on, we are just in love. Whoa! And then this is gonna be fantastic. No, it’s not gonna be, ‘cause he doesn’t know how to share. That’s the only reason the woman is marrying him. I love you. I ... there’s physical chemistry here, but I want to know you. I want to share your life. I want you to talk to me. He’s not gonna do that. If she knew that, she’d never marry him. But--

Jim: And again--

David: --she’ll find out.

Jim: --you’re defining 85 percent of men, according to the surveys, that we have this intimacy avoidance “gene” (Laughing) or component. But how do we learn? Because men can also move ... and all of us as human beings--men or women--move to comfort. Comfort usually ... I don’t want to use the word “laziness.” I guess you would (Laughing).

David: I probably would.

Jim: But ... but we ... we don’t want to work hard. Um ... you know, we work hardout there. We work hard at our vocation. We’ll put our extra time in. We’ll do the extra report for the boss. We’ll do that dinner that, man, I really don’t want to do, but you know what? It could get me the promotion. We’re willing to put in the time for those things, yet in somethingthis important, your very relationship with your spouse may be on the line, you know what? It’s just so much work. Why do we think that way?

David: Well, it’s a guy thing. It ... we like to be good at certain things and the guy knows, I’m not good at this. This is not my arena, not my expertise. It’s gonna be embarrassing to me. I’m gonna feel insecure and so, I’d just rather not. And so, if the woman will kind of put up with it and tolerate it and there’s physical intimacy and there’s meals made and we’re together, I can really be in denial about how unhappy she is. That’s why the ... I think the woman has to be the one to break through. The guy’s not gonna get it. He will live 40 years, 50 years of marriage, die, he’s in a graveyard, she’s released, never having had intimacy or she’s gonna divorce him or just stay miserable. So, she’s gotta say, we have to make a change.

Jim: I ... I’ve gotta ask this question. It may sound a little out of place, but a lot of couples, particularly men, will say, oh, we talk all the time.

David: Right.

Jim: You know, we’re talkin’ all the time. Uh ... they don’t even know what you’re talkin’ about right now. What does “intimate conversation” sound like? I mean--

David: Yeah.

Jim: --we did talk about the mower. We did talk ... hey, we talked schedule. In fact, we talked about where the kids need to be tomorrow.

David: Yeah, because we’re--

Jim: --and who’s gonna drive ‘em there.

David: --we’re remodeling the bathroom or whatever. Exact ... that’s not what the womanwants!

Jim: But tell us what is it that she’s looking for? What kind of conversation does she want?

David: She wants to talk about how you feel about her, how the marriage is going. These are just ... guys are running for the hills right now. Are you kidding me? How are we doing? Gosh, what could I do different in this marriage? How do you feel about me? I want emotions. I want you to talk about your day in such a way that I ... you kinda guide me through it. Men don’t talk that way. And let’s say a close friend ... we’ve been to two funerals in a week. And it’s really been tough. And we love the people involved and very difficult and loved on the families. These ... this had led to some great conversations for Sandy and I.

Our own mortality, ch ... people we know that are ill. Our parents are struggling in some areas. We’re talking. It’s sh ... I’ve learned that. Now 20 years ago, 10 years ago, uh-uh, I wouldn’t have been able to do it.

John: Hm.

David: I would’ve said, yeah, I went to the funeral; that was tough. I’m done. Don’t want to talk about that stuff.

Jim: ‘Cause we close down.

David: Oh, totally. This is sensitive and nasty and difficult. I’d rather not. Sandy isreallyinterested in talking about those issues, of course, being a woman. And so, now we’re so much closer, ‘cause we’ve talked about those things. You can take any event, funerals were a bit dramatic. It could be a wedding, could be anywhere you go. You see a movie. You don’t see a movie to see a mov ... a guy thinks ... he thinks .... sees a movie just to see the movie. No, no, no, no, dummy! Moron! I’m the same way. You see the movie to talk with your wife about the movieafterwards. That’s the whole point!

And it’s not even the mov ... it’s what it reminds you of. Boy, that couple, that one scene reminded me of when we were dating, you know, back and we were at the Del Coronado in San Diego and we were on the beach and we snuck in and used their Jacuzzi. Ha, we weren’t staying there. I mean, just stuff like that (Laughter), not that, that happened. (Laughter) But things that ...

Jim: Talking from experience here. (Laughter)

John: Well, we are listening ... some great wit and wisdom from Dr. David Clarke on today’s Focus on the Family hosted by Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller. Stop bywww.focusonthefamily.com/radioto see more about our guest, his book and some practical things that you can take away if you can’t stay with us for the rest of the conversation here.

Okay, so we’ve been talkin’ about stereotypes. It feels to me, like there’s a lot of stereotyping going on here and there may be some guys thinkin’, yeah, but I ... I ... to Jim’s point, I really do this. Are there different degrees ... I mean, is there a spectrum of loneliness in a marriage? And there are seasons, too, aren’t there?

David: Yeah, that’s true and that’s part of the dialogue I want the couple to start having. You know, we’re close at these times. We’re not close at these times. Uh ... the children are getting in the way. I’m trying to build my career. It’s for the family, but it’s gotten in the way. So, there are seasons you go through. As long as you’re honest about those seasons, you can kinda navigate and get right back on track.

Jim: Well, in fact, in your book,Married...But Lonely, you talk about uh ... a husband transformation strategy. Now this is a ... about like, “for $19.99 you, too can have (Laughter) a new husband, by the husband transformation strategy.” What are you drivin’ at there?

David: We’ve gotta teach this man skills. First, we have to get his attention. I’m not happy. And the woman will admit, I’m part of the problem. I’ve not shared my needs. And so, we go through a series of steps where she shares her needs very clearly.

He reads chapters in the book. He only has to read three chapters of the book — 5, 6 and 7, about what God says tohusbands. It’s not even what the wife said, it’s whatGodsays about meeting the woman’s needs. Well, God would know. He reads those chapters. He starts to realize, I’m falling short. Yes, you are. Let’s work together on these issues.

And so, it just goes step, by step, by step. She’s gonna clean out her resentments, because a woman who has a lot of resentments that [have] built up, even with a good man she loves, is not gonna be able to accept his change even if hedoeschange. So, we have to clean those resentments out, not fun to do. 

I’m not the “fun therapist.” Anyway ... so, we move through that material. And then she forgives him and then she’s open, plus as she shares her resentments and he talks with her through those things, he knows what her real issues are, ‘cause she’s nailing it every time she talks abouta resentment.

Jim: David, you must find a bit of humor when you read the Scriptures as a therapist, someone trained and you come across, like in Proverbs where it says, “It’s better to live (Chuckling) on the corner of your roof than in the house with a contentious woman.” That’s the paraphrase that--

David: Yeah.

Jim: --comes to mind. You’re kind of describing what the person writing that Proverb was talkin’ about. It’s this conflict. Man, I’d rather not be in this house. I’m gonna go live on the roof.

David: Yeah.

Jim: Uh ... it’s odd, but do you laugh at some of those Scriptures?

David: You know, I do, ‘cause I see it in my office every day of the week, Monday through Friday. And ... and you’re gonna live with a contentious woman if shedoesn’texpress her resentments, if she’s not dead honest with you.

All the resentments make a woman who’s cold, who’s mean, who’s sarcastic, who will pay you back. (Laughing) Oh, it’s terr ... and she doesn’t want to; she’s just going to. If she’ll clean that out in a firm, but gracious way-- you’re not kickin’ the door in going, “All right, buddy, you and me.” You are firm;you’re loving, but you’re gracious and respectful. You’re not just mean and sarcastic about it.

Jim: Okay. Let’s give a little clue here. You talk about uh ... a man’s density (Laughing), you know, but that we’re dense generally. Give us some of the telltale signs of resentment. If your wife is doingX, then you’re in trouble. Did ... fill in theX.

David: You go to kiss her in the morning and you get the cheek. This is a clue. Um ... you come home and ... and she’s made the meal and you ask her to sit with you, as many men do. “Gosh, I’d like to watch a show with you, Honey. Could you sit with me on the couch?” She doesn’t do so; she has other things to do.

It will really hit you in the bedroom. Oh, that’s where the man will really ... even a dense man will start to realize. She will avoid intimacy. She will not be with you uh ... physically. She will ... and when she is, she’s absolutely not there.

Um ... she will say things, even in public that are kinda, not out and out sarcastic and mean, but there’s a tinge to it. There’s an edge to it. Um ... she will really focus on the kids. She will spend very little time with you. I mean, this is what’s happening. It may ... takes men maybe months, evenyearsto figure it out, ‘cause the man will go, “Well, I ... I don’t really get it anyway and I don’t really need intimacy anyway, so I’m ... I’ll just go wr ... get wrapped up in my job or sports.” And so, they’re just really pulling apart.

Jim: Is it ever too late for a couple to get on the right track?

David: Never, ever too late. I say that to every couple I see. I’m like a dog on a bone. ‘Cause one person wants divorce; one doesn’t. I gotta work on the one that does ... that wants divorce. No, this can change. If we know Jesus, if everybody in this room knows Jesus and wedo, right? Right? We’ll get through.

Jim: Now, I’ve got to imagine that those folks feel hopeless. I mean, they’ve been arguing, perhaps like you said, for years. Uh ... to say that ... I hear it, but how do you take that first step? What are you gonna do to begin to remedy this deficit that you’ve perhaps had for years in your relationship?

David: Well, Dr. Clarke always has a plan. (Laughter) And it begins ... and so, people will know that. I’m gonna take you through a series of steps, maybedragyou through and you have to do it my way or I won’t see you. But we’ll start with prayer right there in my office. Now we know God here. We’re gonna pr ... I’m gonna pray for you right now. I may ha ...even have them pray. We’re gonna right now give this to God and we’re gonna ask Him for His help.

And I’ll say, if God was here in this room,and He is— let’s picture Him sitting in this chair, what do you think He would say about your marriage? Well,they knowwhat He’d say. He’d want us to ... they hang their head. He’d want us to fix it. Yes, He would.

Well, knowing that, let’s ask for His help and we start spiritually bonding right away. I have them start praying the first week together. They aren’t even talking, let alone praying. I don’t care if the prayer is as simple as, “Dear God, our marriage is in trouble. I have no hope here, but I’m asking, would You help it.” Just that simple prayer is powerful and it will give them hope, the slightest sliver of hope. [The] tiniest sliver of hope can make all the difference.

Jim: Uh ... when you look at our culture, this is a bigger question, but uh ... you see the stats that are so similar. I think the divorce rate is slightly lower in the Christian community, maybe by 10 points or something like that, not dramatically lower.

David: No.

Jim: But it does send a signal generally in the Christian community and the world that’s watching, when our divorce rate is running 25, 30, 35 percent. There’s a problem there, because um ... the world’s not seeing our faith and our commitment to Christ play out. Do you appeal to that larger vision of the fact that ... and I’ve said it very often, our marriages are a witness to the world.

David: Oh, by all means. On a micro level, when I talk to a couple. I say, I ... now we’re gonna get through this. You’re gonna heal. It’ll be a great testimony. Now God wants you happy and for the sake of your kids anyway, serving in the church, glorifying Him. But what He really wants, too, if for you to ... other people that don’t know Jesus, to be looking on and go, “Wow! How could this have happened?”

So yes, I deal with that in the book, too. We’ve got to change this whole cultural swing. Satan is winning and he’s winning big. Christians now--they have no biblical reason. “I’m unhappy; you haven’t met my needs,” is not a biblical reason to get divorced. But women especially, are walking away.

And so, I’m trying to stop that. They don’t have to if the man would really change. But a lady will love a man with every ounce of her heart until she’s finally ... and not having honest ... being honest about her needs or “I’m very unhappy,” until the last day. And then when that last (Sound of snap) ounce is gone, boom! I call it hitting the wall. She’s done. And you literally cannot ... other than an act of God, get that woman back. She’s through.

Jim: In fact, um ...you know, “the greying of divorce,” as the media calls it, there’s been many stories written about that, that once the kids are grown and on their way, um ... couples are looking at each other, thinking there’s nothing more that we have in common. Our kids are gone--

David: Right.

Jim: --and I’m done. And unfortunately, it’s often women that are coming to that conclusion. So, what you’re saying is even backed up in what’s happening in the culture today statistically and through anecdotal stories. Um ... you hear a lot about Christian marriages-- 30, 40 years--

David: Yeah.

Jim: --that they’ve been married and they’re ending. And I ... I’ve even talked to Jean about that to say, you know, how desperate they must be. They don’t have a lot of life left. I mean, not to be discouraging here, but maybe 15, 20 years of quality life left and you’re dumping what you’ve invested in for 30, 40, 50 years? It doesn’t make sense to me. But is that loneliness so deep and so troubling, that they’re willing to leave at 60, 65--

David: Yeah.

Jim: --because they want--

David: It’s that bad.

Jim: --something better?

David: I’m seeing more and more of that in my practice.We never used to lose those couples--never. And now we’re losing them by the scores in major churches and it’s so discouraging for the younger couples. That ripple effect is massive. And I think you’re right; it’s somiserable, that I would rather live alone, break my kids’ hearts, shatter mygrandkids’hearts. I don’t care. I’m so unhappy; I’ve got to ... got to go for the brass ring. I’d rather livealone. Some of these folks will find other partners, but many won’t even remarry, but they’re good with that!

Well, that’s tragic. My point is and God’s point is, really, hopefully, I think it’s my point hopefully is His point, too — No; I don’t want you to stay in misery; I want you to turn this boat around.

Closing:

John: David Clarke has been our guest on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and I’m John Fuller.

Jim: John, that was part one of a very insightful conversation we had with Dr. Clarke and an important reminder, especially there at the end, that we cannot take our marriage or our spouse for granted. If you have problems in your relationship, get help and get it quickly! That’s why Focus on the Family is here; we want to strengthen your marriage and rescue those couples who are in trouble. That’s why we have our counseling team and offer tools like Hope Restored, that intensive counseling experience for couples who really are on the brink of giving up. We’ve shared this before, but Hope Restored is making a big difference in the lives of these couples. So there’s hope for your marriage if you’ll contact us about getting the help you need.

John: And our number is 800-232-6459, 800-232-6459 or you can find details at focusonthefamily.com/radio. You’ll find information aboutDr. Clarke’s book,Married...but Lonely, and how you can get a CD or download of today’s program and we’ll include in the digital file the program from next time as well.

Jim: Maybe you know someone who would benefit from David’s book and if you can send a financial gift of any amount, we’ll send you a complimentary copy of Married... But Lonelyas our way of saying thank you for helping us strengthen and rescue marriages literally around the world.

John: And the place to donate is focusonthefamily.com/radio or call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY.

Coming up next time, you’ll hear more from Dr. Clarke as he returns to help you better communicate with your spouse.

Teaser:

Dr. David Clarke: I can give her 30 minutes of concentrated time where she can talk and express and throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. And certain things I’ll respond to, certain things I won’t. But we can develop some great conversations. I can’t do two hours.

End of Teaser